44 Mag - WW296

4T4MAG · February 22, 2011, 10:42 AM

I have been loading 23.5gr of 296 under a 240gr. XTP. I have been using this load for quite some time. It seems to be very dirty with a lot of black/carbon to clean out after a shoot. Does anyone else find this happens also with 296. Could something like this be due to polish being left on the case after being in the tumbler? The cases are dirty inside and out, the cylinder, and bll.

a7mmnut · February 22, 2011, 10:50 AM

Yep. I had the same problem. Try switching to H110. Check your metering if you are loading progressively. The two powders are ballistically identical at 23.5 grs., according to my Sierra notes. Use caution, though--H110 will pressure out around 24.5 grs. with the 240's.

-7-

**Mike Irwin** · February 22, 2011, 10:51 AM

I use 296 in my .357 and .41 Magnums.

I've always found it to be a pretty clean burning powder.

I sincerely doubt if the issue is due to polish.

totaldla · February 22, 2011, 11:11 AM

H110/296 have such a narrow operating range. You can up the load 0.5 grain and it will clean up a bit. High performance powder isn't necessarily going to give you shiny brass. And you should be using a true magnum primer (CCI350, Fed155).

I switched to Ramshot Enforcer as it causes much less erosion and comes pretty close to the same velocities.

**Unclenick** · February 22, 2011, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a7mmnut

Try switching to H110. . . The two powders are ballistically identical. . .

There is no point in switching brands. The powders aren't just ballistically identical, they are identical. Period. I get this is straight from the mouth of a Hodgdon tech. Checking the MSDS sheets reveals both are canister grade WC296 from the St. Marks powder company. Hodgdon says they were first to market with the canister grade version and that Winchester followed suit.

I have noticed up to about 10% lot-to-lot burn rate equivalent performance difference with this powder in the past. Hodgdon now markets both brands and you will see their load listings are identical for both numbers at all load levels with all bullet type and weight combinations. Hodgdon claims they hold burn rates within 3%, so perhaps the bigger difference is no longer there. I haven't measured it recently.

Soot and carbon generally indicate low pressure for the powder being used. Back twenty-five years ago, when I first tried this powder, Winchester listed just one load for each bullet weight in each magnum chambering. 24.0 grains for 240 grain jacketed bullets in Winchester .44 Magnum cases with Winchester LP primers was their one-and-only, and I still use that today. I would recommend you try that and see if you're problem improves any. Exact pressures vary with case and primer and even bullet brand, and if you are using something different than the above, you could be at even lower pressure, which would help explain the carbon.

Note also that some carbon is normal. If you see a lot of unburned grains, that's a further indication of low pressure.

4T4MAG · February 22, 2011, 12:48 PM

Thank you for your help. The exact recipe that I have been using is Federal large mag. match pistol primers, starline brass, Horneydy XTP 240gr. I fire them through either a Ruger Redhawk or Super Blackhawk. I know that my load books say up to 24gr. for the boolit, what do ya'll load yours at? Anyone load hotter than 24gr. (hot load disclaimer)

Hog Buster · February 22, 2011, 02:38 PM

I’ve been loading and shooting max loads of 296 behind 240 grain jacketed bullets in my model 29 for years. I’ve used just about every case, primer and 240 grain jacketed bullet available in some combination at one time or another. All performed just about the same. Not much problem with carbon deposits, no more than any other brand of powder.

Flame cutting is another story. Apparently the 296 does a job on the top strap with long and continued use. I like large loads so I just accept the fact of flame cutting. If this is a concern to you, be advised it happens with 296. Probably H110 also, being the same powder.

I also use max 296 with a 125 grain jacketed pill in my model 19 and as of yet have not experienced any flame cutting. Go figure?

When I get the chance I’ll post a pic of the flame cutting.

**Unclenick** · February 22, 2011, 05:45 PM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Ruger revolvers, and the Redhawk in particular are pretty stout. I know a number of guys simply fill the space under the bullet with H110/296, short of compressing it, and say they can't find a way to damage any magnum rated gun with that. How much powder that constitutes depends on the bullet and the case brand.

I have a Dan Wesson barrel that's got a good bit of forcing cone erosion from using this powder over the years, so I'm less enthusiastic about making the loads hotter. I am, however, interested in trying the new Alliant 300MP powder, which looks like it might just get a couple hundred feet per second or more over H110/296 loads. No idea what its erosion propensity is.

Hog Buster · February 22, 2011, 05:55 PM

Ok, here's a pic of the flame cutting..... or plasma burn, if you like..... Hog Buster

Stargazer · February 22, 2011, 06:49 PM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I load my 4" RedHawk 45 Colt to 23.5 grains of H110 or W296 using a 300 grain XTP. It burns pretty darn clean compared to 2400 loads for me. Shoot 2400 and I am covered in soot, shoot H110 and the residue is not so bad.

I have shot about (1000) of these type loads in the RedHawk so far and I just looked under a bright flashlight to check for flame cutting, absolutely none whatsoever. The 300 grain bullets are longer though so this may be why mine has none even after so many and such hot loads.

**Unclenick** · February 23, 2011, 11:01 AM

I expect you're getting a lot more of it burning before the barrel/cylinder gap is exposed, leaving less hard sand for the blasting. It's a problem with rear ignition that a plug of unlit powder starts moving forward with the bullet. The longer that takes to happen, the more of it gets lit before the exposure, which actually softens it.

Scorch · February 23, 2011, 12:03 PM

If W296/H110 is giving you headaches, try IMR4227 or 2400 instead. IMR4227 is a great powder, and not as temperamental as W296. I use Blue Dot almost exclusively for my 44 Mag with no issues, but it's not for everyone.

wildphilhickup · February 23, 2011, 07:16 PM

Easy fix. Have a machinist machine a radial groove in the top strap.

Look at a Colt 1909. You will see a "groove", a radius in the top strap.

No more gas erosion.

GeauxTide · February 23, 2011, 08:40 PM

One thing that came to me was the matter of bullet pull. If you're not getting hard bullet pulls with heavy charges of slow powder, that could also create your problem. Your sizing die should be tight and a heavy roll crimp should be used. You should be able to see the outline of the seated bullet before crimping.

k4swb · February 23, 2011, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Anyone load hotter than 24gr

I do at times.

m&p45acp10+1 · February 24, 2011, 01:05 AM

If you want cleaner burning try switching to Acurate#9. I use H110 for realy hot loads in .41 mag. The AA#9 will get me to near the velocities that the H110 does. It is much cleaner, and way more flexible. I can also load lead with the same powder not having to worry about the only reduce 3 prcent below starting load range that h110 and ww296 are limited to.

crowbeaner · February 27, 2011, 03:41 PM

The best way to use 296/H110 is to buy it in 8# jugs at a time. If you only get one or two 1 pounders, you'll find lot-to-lot variations.
I use 24.0 grains and a 240 jacketed bullet, and 25.0 with a gaschecked hardcast bullet and ALWAYS use magnum primers, tight neck tension, and a firm roll crimp for best results. I consider 296/H110 as THE magnum powder with 2400 and 4227 as second and third.

AlaskaMike · February 28, 2011, 12:49 PM

Crowbeaner wrote:

Quote:

I use 24.0 grains and a 240 jacketed bullet, and 25.0 with a gaschecked hardcast bullet

Crowbeaner, I just thought I'd point out that 25 grains of H110/296 with a 240 or 250 grain cast bullet is above max in most of the manuals I have. I've actually used it myself with good results, but only with stronger revolvers like my Colt Anaconda. That's definitely not a load I'd use in my S&W 29-2 (pre-dating the endurance package).

crowbeaner · February 28, 2011, 01:08 PM

Mike; those loads are straight from the WW data booklets I have. YMMV.

February 22, 2011, 10:42 AM	#1
4T4MAG Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2009 Posts: 162	44 Mag - WW296 I have been loading 23.5gr of 296 under a 240gr. XTP. I have been using this load for quite some time. It seems to be very dirty with a lot of black/carbon to clean out after a shoot. Does anyone else find this happens also with 296. Could something like this be due to polish being left on the case after being in the tumbler? The cases are dirty inside and out, the cylinder, and bll.

February 22, 2011, 10:51 AM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I use 296 in my .357 and .41 Magnums. I've always found it to be a pretty clean burning powder. I sincerely doubt if the issue is due to polish. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 22, 2011, 11:11 AM	#4
totaldla Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2009 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 1,295	H110/296 have such a narrow operating range. You can up the load 0.5 grain and it will clean up a bit. High performance powder isn't necessarily going to give you shiny brass. And you should be using a true magnum primer (CCI350, Fed155). I switched to Ramshot Enforcer as it causes much less erosion and comes pretty close to the same velocities. __________________ Lee Auto Bench Prime Castor Oil Case Lube

February 22, 2011, 02:38 PM	#7
Hog Buster Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2009 Location: Pointe Coupee, Louisana Posts: 772	I’ve been loading and shooting max loads of 296 behind 240 grain jacketed bullets in my model 29 for years. I’ve used just about every case, primer and 240 grain jacketed bullet available in some combination at one time or another. All performed just about the same. Not much problem with carbon deposits, no more than any other brand of powder. Flame cutting is another story. Apparently the 296 does a job on the top strap with long and continued use. I like large loads so I just accept the fact of flame cutting. If this is a concern to you, be advised it happens with 296. Probably H110 also, being the same powder. I also use max 296 with a 125 grain jacketed pill in my model 19 and as of yet have not experienced any flame cutting. Go figure? When I get the chance I’ll post a pic of the flame cutting. __________________ Those who beat their guns into plows, will plow for those who don't.-Thomas Jefferson

February 22, 2011, 05:45 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. Ruger revolvers, and the Redhawk in particular are pretty stout. I know a number of guys simply fill the space under the bullet with H110/296, short of compressing it, and say they can't find a way to damage any magnum rated gun with that. How much powder that constitutes depends on the bullet and the case brand. I have a Dan Wesson barrel that's got a good bit of forcing cone erosion from using this powder over the years, so I'm less enthusiastic about making the loads hotter. I am, however, interested in trying the new Alliant 300MP powder, which looks like it might just get a couple hundred feet per second or more over H110/296 loads. No idea what its erosion propensity is. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 22, 2011, 10:50 AM	#2
a7mmnut Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: NC Foothills Posts: 1,150	Yep. I had the same problem. Try switching to H110. Check your metering if you are loading progressively. The two powders are ballistically identical at 23.5 grs., according to my Sierra notes. Use caution, though--H110 will pressure out around 24.5 grs. with the 240's. -7-

February 22, 2011, 12:48 PM	#6
4T4MAG Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2009 Posts: 162	Thank you for your help. The exact recipe that I have been using is Federal large mag. match pistol primers, starline brass, Horneydy XTP 240gr. I fire them through either a Ruger Redhawk or Super Blackhawk. I know that my load books say up to 24gr. for the boolit, what do ya'll load yours at? Anyone load hotter than 24gr. (hot load disclaimer)

February 22, 2011, 06:49 PM	#10
Stargazer Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 506	CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. I load my 4" RedHawk 45 Colt to 23.5 grains of H110 or W296 using a 300 grain XTP. It burns pretty darn clean compared to 2400 loads for me. Shoot 2400 and I am covered in soot, shoot H110 and the residue is not so bad. I have shot about (1000) of these type loads in the RedHawk so far and I just looked under a bright flashlight to check for flame cutting, absolutely none whatsoever. The 300 grain bullets are longer though so this may be why mine has none even after so many and such hot loads. __________________ 5.56mm, reach out and touch something. .458 SOCOM,reach out and knock something down. M70 Web Page

February 23, 2011, 11:01 AM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I expect you're getting a lot more of it burning before the barrel/cylinder gap is exposed, leaving less hard sand for the blasting. It's a problem with rear ignition that a plug of unlit powder starts moving forward with the bullet. The longer that takes to happen, the more of it gets lit before the exposure, which actually softens it. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 23, 2011, 12:03 PM	#12
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	If W296/H110 is giving you headaches, try IMR4227 or 2400 instead. IMR4227 is a great powder, and not as temperamental as W296. I use Blue Dot almost exclusively for my 44 Mag with no issues, but it's not for everyone. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

February 23, 2011, 07:16 PM	#13
wildphilhickup Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Posts: 37	Flame Cutting = Gas Erosion Easy fix. Have a machinist machine a radial groove in the top strap. Look at a Colt 1909. You will see a "groove", a radius in the top strap. No more gas erosion.

February 23, 2011, 08:40 PM	#14
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	One thing that came to me was the matter of bullet pull. If you're not getting hard bullet pulls with heavy charges of slow powder, that could also create your problem. Your sizing die should be tight and a heavy roll crimp should be used. You should be able to see the outline of the seated bullet before crimping.

February 24, 2011, 01:05 AM	#16
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	If you want cleaner burning try switching to Acurate#9. I use H110 for realy hot loads in .41 mag. The AA#9 will get me to near the velocities that the H110 does. It is much cleaner, and way more flexible. I can also load lead with the same powder not having to worry about the only reduce 3 prcent below starting load range that h110 and ww296 are limited to. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

February 27, 2011, 03:41 PM	#17
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	The best way to use 296/H110 is to buy it in 8# jugs at a time. If you only get one or two 1 pounders, you'll find lot-to-lot variations. I use 24.0 grains and a 240 jacketed bullet, and 25.0 with a gaschecked hardcast bullet and ALWAYS use magnum primers, tight neck tension, and a firm roll crimp for best results. I consider 296/H110 as THE magnum powder with 2400 and 4227 as second and third. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

February 28, 2011, 01:08 PM	#19
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	Mike; those loads are straight from the WW data booklets I have. YMMV. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.