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Old March 18, 2017, 06:57 PM   #26
random guy
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IMO, "redesigns" is a poor way to phrase the problem. What shouldering such a pistol does is potentially show intent to build a de facto short barreled rifle.

In this case, maybe use redefines the firearm. It's not a good way to define things for legal purposes but this is an odd case. We are adding a part to the butt of a "pistol" which actually forms a pretty fair buttstock, while making the specific claim that it is not a buttstock.
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Old March 19, 2017, 10:43 PM   #27
raimius
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It's definitely a frustrating interpretation from the ATF. The mystical non-SBR, until it's an SBR, but then maybe-not-again-SBR...
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Old March 19, 2017, 11:40 PM   #28
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I think the best response to the situation is to mind your own business and not concern yourself with other's life decisions that do not affect you.
Bingo!!!! Best advice of this thread!!!
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Old March 20, 2017, 01:00 AM   #29
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Technically, just minding one's own business can be a felony. Knowing of a felonious act and not reporting it is itself a felony, ("misprision of a felony") though violations are hard to prove and prosecutions are not common.

The whole law is essentially stupid and the ATF has to try to enforce it as best they can because they took an oath to do so. And smart people keep trying to invent absolutely useless things that will "almost but not quite" violate the law - for no reason other than to be able to say they are almost but not quite violating the law.

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Old March 20, 2017, 08:46 AM   #30
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I checled several states and in each one, misprision of a felony was a misdemeanor.
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Old March 20, 2017, 04:47 PM   #31
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Are you sure the guy wasn't messing with you? He knew enough to sound like he may have been messing with you.
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Old March 20, 2017, 08:06 PM   #32
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Yup

Some of us enjoy "yanking the chain" of people who don't mind their own business.

I think Tony got it right.
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Old March 21, 2017, 05:18 AM   #33
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The owner said that the guns were pistols.

He was either wrong and committing a felony or he was right and on solid legal ground. Doesn't sound like he was playing games though.

Unless they were stamped SBRs and he was denying it to cause alarm.
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Old March 21, 2017, 06:41 AM   #34
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misprison--I learned a new word--thanks for that! : )

I used to shoot a lot in TN wildlife area ranges--while they may not have a range officer present, they ALL have a state ranger assigned to oversight of the district If you really had any questions--you shoulda called them if you felt the law was being broken and it really bothered you that much. Somebody once called and reported my rear-end while I was firing my 44 mag blackhawk in the pistol pit at 25 yds, and I hoisted my rifle to look at the target through my scope at the target--next thing you know a ranger showed up ready to cite me and fine me for firing a rifle in a pistol-only pit.

There is so much buffoonery that goes on at these unsupervised ranges that I've learned from experience to keep my nose out of everyone's business UNLESS someone stupidly does something that endangers themselves or others with getting shot--then I'd jump on em without hesitation (and I'm a small wimpy guy). Your choice--but I go with the mind-your-own-business crowd unless you are absolutely sure you want to get into the part-time ATF informant business. Gangs fronted by drug cartels are also very active in TN--you may want to think twice about walking up to and hassling someone about their weapon.
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Old March 21, 2017, 09:13 AM   #35
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There is a letter out from the ATF that states that using a pistol brace at the shoulder does not make it an SBR its just using it wrong.
I found this and I think it's still the ATF's position?

http://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

Pistol brace is fine if used as designed, but not if shouldered. Shouldered = SBR.

collapsible stocks would be an SBR.
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Old March 21, 2017, 12:47 PM   #36
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I would feel like Diogenes looking for an honest man trying to find an "arm brace" that had not been shouldered at one time or another.
When the search for Kewl Faktor clashes with repressive government, you get nonsense like "arm braces."
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Old March 21, 2017, 07:07 PM   #37
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Evidently I read a White Paper not to be confused with a "Letter".

As I said before I don't have a dog in this race but if I did I'd be absolutely sure I knew what the law entailed. And I surely wouldn't take some internet guys (me) word for anything.

ATF - Paper https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

Leaked White Paper - https://d3uwh8jpzww49g.cloudfront.ne...-or-modify.pdf
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Old March 21, 2017, 07:31 PM   #38
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wow--if understand correctly the "leaked" paper suggests elimination of the "redesign" language, which for all practical purposes removes the "mystical transformation" aspect of a brace-equipped firearm--but I wonder if that necessarily means the brace thing is going away altogether?
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Old March 21, 2017, 08:47 PM   #39
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I'm not going to debate the legality of the situation.

I'll examine some clues to the situation.

According to your story...

1. The guy knew enough that you needed 'papers'

2. He knew certain distinctions of ARs enough to call it a 'pistol'.

When people don't know, they really don't know much at all. Any guy who was Cabelas who just happened to buy an AR pistol and then ignorantly slap on a stock wouldn't even know about 'papers'. He would just be like, 'what's that?'

Hardcore gangsters who don't care about NFA laws don't go target shooting with their kids.

This guy was almost certainly jerking your chain.

When I'm at the range, I always very patiently try to speak and convert every person who is not knowledgeable about NFA firearms. Most people who are inquisitive don't know much at all, but are thoroughly excited that they, too, can buy such toys.

But every once in a while, I'll get the indignant person who has no interest and is just being nosy. In which case, the conversation will go something like

Q: is that legal?

A: Huh? You can get this stuff online!

Or

A: I just made my full auto AR an hour ago! (with a RDIAS)

Both answers above are absolutely true, btw.
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Old Today, 01:23 AM   #40
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Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Misprision of a felony is not a mandatory crime reporting law. Under federal law, misprision not only requires actual knowledge of the crime, but you have to also take some action to conceal the criminal conduct (e.g. lie to the feds). In the OP's example, or any gun range empirically gathered evidence example, you cannot possibly have actual knowledge of an "SBR crime". Furthermore, a person is only charged with knowing the law to extent they must comply with the law - you are not charged with knowing whether or not someone else is complying with the law. Unlike complying with the laws (i.e. ignorance is not an excuse), you are not required to know the law in the imprision context. In other words, ignorance absolutely can be an excuse as to whether someone else is committing a felony. The common people are not law enforcement or judiciary agents. Minding your own business is not a crime unless you are a person who, by law, is under a heightened standard (e.g. child abuse reporting statutes for health professionals). Misprision is essentially an aiding and abetting or obstruction related charge, and nothing more. If you could go to prison for simply being in the vicinity of someone feloniously violating any weapons related laws, then no rational person would go to any gun range or be around anyone who has a weapon unless they are 1,000% vetted by you.

I concur with the "mind your own business" crowd. The OP is presuming that the guy is in violation of the law based on some empirical evidence and what the guy said. Who really knows if he was legally compliant or not other than the feds. If the OP is really worried about it, then file a complaint with the authorities. If the OP is not, then move on (i.e. what's the point of this discussion?).

Last edited by Sgt Pepper; Today at 01:29 AM.
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