Post-Military Gunsmithing

[AirmanRatliff]

Hey all. Looking to get some input and info from any of you who may know. Thanks in advance.

I'm in the military, an AMMO troop by trade. Love the how and why of weapons, and working on them. I'm coming up on re upping, and wondering if it's time to get out and go to school, maybe pursue the dream. I've heard there aren't many brick and mortar schools for the art anymore, but what's your take? I'm over a year out from decision time, but figure plan ahead. I've done some basic coursework with machining and such, but what's a real gunsmith's take on it? Is it a road worth taking?

Thanks in advance guys, I'm just trying to get some truth here.

[PolarFBear]

"Educate" before you terminate! Take this next year to inquire of any "smith" you can find as to the costs to start a shop. They are extraordinary.

[jcj54]

Trinidad State College, Colorado
Pennsylvania School of Gunsmithing
These are the two I would suggest, Google them.
Don't know about Colorado, but Pennsylvania school has no dorms, so room and board are on you.
The cost of setting up a shop are high due to the cost of machinery (even used) and the special tools needed.
If it's truly your passion, you can make it work.
Having 37 years in the business I can tell you that when the economy is down, getting Gunsmithing done is low on the average person's priority list.
These days I work as a machinist full time to pay the bills and do Gunsmithing part time.
Thank you for serving, and best wishes to you.

[Jim Watson]

There is a great difference between military armorer and commercial gunsmith.
In the Army, everybody uses the same type rifles and pistols, parts and manuals are readily available, techniques are standardized.

It might be a shock when somebody comes into your new gunsmithing shop with a shotgun that has been discontinued for decades, complicated disassembly, no literature, and no parts available except what Numrich might have been able to cull off guns already themselves worn out.

My Neighbor the Gunsmith hated to see this stuff show up. He would put far more time and effort into fixing an old pump gun than it was worth to start with.

[g.willikers]

Auto repair and gun repair have a lot in common.
Being knowledgeable with one type of car/gun may not be much help when something very different comes in.
It can be a very long road gaining the know how and experience to take on all comers.
For some strange reason, most folks don't enjoy paying you while you learn on their stuff.
It's fun figuring out something new and different as a hobby, but not so much with the customer breathing down your neck "Is it done yet, is it done yet."

[AirmanRatliff]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. The more I look at this, the more I think that i need time and education first. Uncle Sam really likes to trade time for education these days, so I think I'll re up, set aside the re enlistment bonus as education funds, and get me some learning as i can hahah. My job actually has nothing to do with weapons per say, just whatever they shoot, drop, launch and ignite. I'm less of an armorer and more of a bomb, missle and ammo guy.

[4V50 Gary]

Took 8 classes at Lassen NRA summer school and when I went full time, attended Trinidad State.

Trinidad State assumes you know nothing and starts you from the ground up to build a custom rifle. You remove the barrel of a Mauser and then rebarrel it. You customize the action (forge bend the bolt or cut off the bolt handle and weld a new one of your design on, install a swing type safety, fabricate a new floor plate release, mill the trigger guard, stone and install a Timney Trigger (Timney hates TSJC for that) and then by the third semester, build a stock for it (so you learn to use a stock duplicator to make a stock from a blank and then final inletting and shaping). By the fourth semester, you build another rifle on your own.

First semster classes include Intro to Firearms (designs, operation, evolution, theory), machine shop (intro to lathe and you make tools you'll use later on in the program), TIG welding. Another major first semester class is bench metal. You learn to do simple things all gunsmiths should know. File, saw, polish, solder, braze as well as make a "V" spring from flat spring stock, browning, forging & tempering, tool making (you make tools you'll use later in the program), color case hardening, inletting (intro actually) when you assemble a Traditions Trapper pistol. It's not building the Trapper but the lessons you learn while building it.

The second semester has metal finish (bluing and parkerizing), more machine shop, inletting (discussed above), conversions (also discussed above).

There are two semesters of repair where you are introduced to some very common firearms and taught to trouble shoot them. It is impossible to teach the student about every single design, but they give you the basics so you can diagnose and repair firearms. Sometimes where parts were unavailable we had to make parts. Sometimes worn parts were welded up, re-machined (and filed) so as to restore it to working conditions. Sometimes we had to make coil springs or other odd shaped springs (they teach you).

Electives include classes on working on pistols, revolvers, double gun,
shotgun, alternative finishes (nickel, cerakote). I didn't take revolvers because I already knew how to install a new barrel and took several revolver classes at Lassen. Besides, in the repair class I got to fix both S&W type revolvers as well as an older Colt (Python type action).

They do have dormitories, but I would elect to rent a house instead. Students at the dorms put up with more azz-hattery and noise and are required to buy the meal plan. When they say the food is an unique dining experience, they are't kidding. I'll take bread and butter first.

TSJC has an excellent library too. I learned things there are obscure or forgotten. For instant, we all know that in WW I the Germans mustered 20k scoped rifles from civilian hands but did you know most of them were unsuitable for military service? Their actions could not handle the German army ammunition.

Summer schools classes are worth attending. They bring in guest instructors who are outstanding in their field. I took Bill Laughridge (Cylinder & Slide) for semi-automatic pistol (it was better than the class I took at Lassen). I had both Hugh Toejnes (sp) and Jack Brooks for Relief Carving. Clayton Neslon teaches custom stockmaking (but you want to also learn from the regular instructor, G. Morovits). Now they also have someone who has experimented for years on color case hardening (very scientific approach). The fellow who teaches double gun has a cult following. You can also get your NRA instructor certification there (Range safety officer, chief range safety officer, handgun, rifle, shotgun, personal protection inside the home and personal protection outside the home, muzzleloading, etc). It's not just firearms but they also offer hatmaking, spur making and other craft related courses at TSJC.

The school also has its own range, Prator Range, which is just a few miles outside of town. It offers trap, skeet, rifle and handgun facilities and the recent introduction of dirt filled Hesco (steel gabions) baskets makes Prator more versatile. Get bored with 100 yards? Go to nearby Whittington (1/2 hour away in Raton, New Mexico) and shoot steel silhouette out to 1,000 yards. I hit the life size steel White Buffalo at 1123 yards and coached many kids to do the same (easy once the rifle is sighted in). Whittington also has a nice museum which they plan to expand three fold.

They also have fishing here.

Nearby historic sites include Bent's Old Fort (part of the National Park Service) which is slightly over one hour to the east by La Junta, CO. Francisco's Fort (La Veta, CO) is an old trading post with adobe walls (I did conservation work on their firearms), St. James Hotel (Cimmaron, New Mexico) where all the famous cowboys and outlaws ate, Taos, Fort Garland (about 2 hours) army post where Kit Carson once commanded.

[dakota.potts]

If you ever want to look into the Technical college program (4 semesters or 2 years) at Piedmont Tech in South Carolina, feel free to PM me. I can give you my e-mail or phone number if you want and I'll tell you about my experience out there.

[Tinbucket]

Retire first. You'll hate yourself for getting out after a month or two or a year.
Civilian life sucks even if you have a rough assignment sometimes.
Perhaps you can get into the shops where they prepare sniper rifles and others and custom load ammo.
When you retire you will have a lot of flexibility and security, some economic security, which helps self assurance tremendously, and whatever endeavor you do.

[T. O'Heir]

There are essentially no entry level jobs. Any that are out there are at minimum wage(usually no benefits or job security either) and usually in the back of a big box store where selling is more important than fixing anything.
To open a shop you will need buckets of cash, both to live on(for at least 2 to 3 years) and pay COD for everything you have in the shop. Nobody will give you credit terms when you're the FNG. Plus enormously expensive liability insurance, rent, licences assorted, tools, etc., etc.
And like Jim Watson says, a weapons tech is not a gunsmith. Don't even think about correspondence or on-line gunsmithing classes either.
There are a bunch of "I what to be a gunsmith." post on every forum. Search and read.

[Dfariswheel]

As above, do some searches on the gun forums, people ask these questions often.

I was formally trained as a watchmaker and also worked as a gunsmith, specializing in Colt DA Revolvers.
I'll unload on you.........
Here's some basic info:

1. You will not make much money....ever.
There's an old joke: "How's a gunsmith and a large pizza alike? Neither can feed a family of 4".
That's NOT a joke.
Most self employed gunsmiths (those few who make it without going broke) are working for less then minimum wage when you figure in all the hours they spend doing businessman paperwork, etc.
The only people who make much in gunsmithing are the big business owners like Bill Wilson who has a number of gunsmiths working for him.

A gunsmith has to get his job satisfaction in the work, not in the low pay.
You will not own a Rolex, a nice vehicle, or house, nor will you take the expensive vacations.
You'll retire on what Social Security will give you.
You may have to work a day job, then do gunsmithing at night.
That will prevent you from having a big business because there's only so many hours in a day you can stay awake.

2. Start a business right away after training and I can guarantee that you'll be broke and out of business in less then a year.
Figure it takes probably $50,000 or more to buy the equipment and set up a shop.
The bills roll in immediately, but you don't have enough money coming in because you won't have a customer base yet.
You need to survive for at least two years without much income to build a business.

3. You will not be a gunsmith.
You'll be a businessman who happens to run a gunsmithing business.
Much of your limited time will be spent doing taxes and other paperwork for the government, ordering supplies and parts, talking to prospective clients, and arguing with the inevitable unhappy clients.
Somewhere in there you have to find time to actually do the work.
See Number One about minimum wage.

4. The best deal is to work for someone else, like Bill Wilson.
That gives you time to really learn the trade and how to do the work fast and good, build up a customer base, and buy the equipment a piece at a time.
It also allows you to pick a good area to open up shop with a good customer base.
Probably the best course financially is to keep working for the big business owner for your entire career.
They will usually have benefits and a living wage.

5. If you're the type that gets satisfaction in always trying to do a perfect job, knowing that no human can ever do a perfect job, and can live with a lower standard of living to allow being in the trade, you may be happy at it.
If not, you won't be in the trade long = wasted money for the training.

6. If you want to make it, go to a better attendance school.
Forget the online and mail order BS.
NO reputable gun store or shop will hire any "gunsmith" with those credentials.
If you're lucky they won't laugh in your face and will at least wait for you to leave before pitching your application in the trash.

Also forget serving as an apprentice.
Few gunsmiths take apprentices these days, and often YOU pay THEM for the training.
Another problem is who the gunsmith is who's training you?
If he's no good he's going to train you to be no good.
Also, if you apply for a job, if the gunsmith who trained you isn't famous they'll have no idea if you know what you're doing or not.
See the above about trash cans and applications.

The advantages of an actual attendance school is that you'll have an expert gunsmith-instructor looking over your shoulder and teaching you how to do it better and faster, and whether you're even doing it right.

The good schools have national reputations that will at least get you a serious interview.
A graduation certificate from those has at least some value simply because of their reputation for turning out qualified people.
Any fool or hammer mechanic can call himself a gunsmith and you can print up a "Gunsmith certification" on your printer.
There is NO national license or standard to judge by.
That's why a good school with a good rep has value.

Also, the better schools will do you a favor and let you know if you're no good at the trade.
This will save you spending a lot of money just to fail.
Yes, watchmaking, gunsmithing, and other trade schools are full of people who are totally unsuited and unable to do the quality of work.
They want to, they just don't have the talent and skills.
In MOST of these trades, in 5 years, most of the graduates will not be in the trade. They'll be doing something else.
Some because the money was no good, but a lot because they were no good.

You need to research this whole idea very carefully before jumping in blind.
Good luck

With that, here's a list of American Gunsmithing schools.
Trinidad JR College and at least until recently Colorado School of Trades were the best.

Colorado School of Trades
1575 Hoyt Street
Lakewood, CO 80215
Phone: 800-234-4594

Lassen Community College
P.O. Box 3000
Susanville, CA 96130
Phone: 530-257-4211

Modern Gun School
80 North Main Street, P.O. Box 846
St. Albans, VT 05478
Phone: 800-493-4114

Montgomery Community College
1011 Page Street
P.O. Box 787
Troy, NC 27371
Phone: 800-839-6222

Murray State College
One Murray Campus
Tishomingo, OK 73460
Phone: 580-371-2371

Pennsylvania Gunsmith School
812 Ohio River Blvd.
Avalon
Pittsburgh, PA 15202
Phone: 412-766-1812

Piedmont Community College
1715 College Drive
P.O. Box 1197
Roxboro, NC 27573
Phone: 336-599-1181

Pine Technical Institute
900 4th Street
Pine City, MN 55063
Phone: 800-521-7463

Trinidad State Jr. College
600 Prospect
Trinidad, CO 81082
Phone: 800-621-8752

Yavapai College
1100 East Sheldon Street
Prescott, AZ 86301
Phone: 520-776-2150

[4V50 Gary]

Dfariswheel is right about not making money. Only a handful of my classmates are working in the industry.

Two are in the production aspect and another two are working for for smiths. One is working at the NRA (prestigious but the pay is paltry).
One is teaching part time at a JC and repairing vehicles the rest of the time. One is doing it part time, but is going to return to full time machining (but continuing to pursue work on a part time basis).
Another is working at a CNC machine shop.
One is in the AMU building custom target pistols for the Army.
A couple of us are retired farts and mostly playing with blackpowder (yours truly included).
Four have not kept in contact so I dunno.

Bill Laughridge (Cylinder & Slide) told us that he did anything and everything before he could work full time. Another well known custom maker told us the same thing. You have to be a good businessman first.

It's a huge investment in time, materials and $$$ resources. Learn as much machining as you can now at any JC or military course. If nothing else, I understand Germany needs machinists.

[Slopemeno]

That era of my life probably takes the award for "worked the hardest, made the least". Any other business probably would have made me more. I was a full-time truck driver plus I did janitorial on the side.

I moved on to a retail business where I could apply some of the skills I learned.

[Scorch]

but what's a real gunsmith's take on it? Is it a road worth taking?

I have been a smith for a number of years now, and no, I cannot recommend the gunsmithing trade to anyone.
* Being a gunsmith is like being an artist. People admire your work, and you will wind up with a few customers who will pay you what you are worth.
* You would make more money working at McDonalds. But McDonalds won't let you play with guns at work.
* You don't have to punch a clock, your time is your own. Come and go as you please, but try to keep regular shop hours.
* You have lots of time to work on things. The main problem is trying to sell your work to someone for what it is worth.
* Yes, you make money, but your income has a lot of seasonal ups and downs.

Like others here have said, learn to be a machinist or tool and die guy. Seriously.

[Itsa Bughunt]

Be a plumber instead. You can master the basics of household service in a month and charge $120 per hour. The government gets half though.

[Slopemeno]

here's how my gunsmithing retirement plan worked out:

I was hired to work in a gunsmithing shop. Met an anodizer and a machine shop owner.
Went to work running the retail and airsmithing of a paintball shop. Learned a lot about making stuff work, gases, machining, and project management. Brought my anodizer and machine shop contacts.
Moved onto an industrial battery shop, where my knowledge of projects and tinkering paid off.
Moved on to a research institution, where my knowledge of gases got me a better job managing that part of the operation. In any one month I had 20,000 cylinders in the field, plus I assembled scientific equipment, which I liked. I had a lot of experience talking customers down, so I started getting the "difficult" customers, who had the biggest projects. Sold a bunch of really large projects that dug my department out of a hole when it really need to happen.
Now I just do customer contact, with 12 years to go to retirement at about a 62% (based on your best three years) level.

So- in a round-about way it worked out for me- I suppose.

Oh, and if anyone's counting Friday is exactly 29 years to the day from my start at the shop.

[Longhorn1986]

You might contact Rod Fiene at Orr Tactical about how he has gone about it.

http://www.orrtactical.com/about-us