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August 3, 2022, 11:34 AM | #1 | |
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NICS Denial Notification Act
I'm hoping for some clarification/interpretation by the more learned members of this forum regarding the NICS Denial Notification Act, Section 1101 within HR2471 Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2022
From HR2471: Quote:
My question is: are delay and denied synonymous as applied by HR2471?
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José Last edited by OPC; August 3, 2022 at 06:37 PM. |
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August 3, 2022, 05:23 PM | #2 | ||
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The law gives the feds 24 hours to report a denial to local authorities. The gummint isn't sure that, if a delay becomes a denial, 24 hours is enough time for them to contact the FFL, get the buyer's address, and forward that to local authorities. Therefore, they have decided to collect that information up front, so they will have it if a delay becomes a denial. From the NSSF: Quote:
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August 3, 2022, 06:45 PM | #3 |
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Ok. That seems disingenuous in that not all Denials are necessarily first a Delay. So the 24hr window concern is not mitigated.
I also noted that their reporting window only applies to Denied, but while they’re required to report on a change to Proceed, there is no mandatory timeframe. [sarcasm] So, you know, just whenever. Maybe a monthly batch? [/sarcasm]
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August 3, 2022, 08:49 PM | #4 |
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Maybe when a field agent or two want a road trip?!
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August 5, 2022, 04:49 PM | #5 |
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The “we’ll” collect the delayed info as well seems like bull to me . Do they define what a delay is or how long it needs to be . I’m in CA and we have a ten day waiting period so there can be a delay of hours or a few days and the buyer may not even know about it .
If there is a delay what good is keeping the info if it becomes a denial . It’s not like even if it was a straight denial they could do all that reporting AND the local police can get there before the guy leaves the store . So they will be long gone if a delay turns to a denial. Are they saying if there is a delay then denial . There will be no record of the denial only the delay ???? Bolder dash!!! This is clearly another way to collect info the should not have nor need .
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August 5, 2022, 09:44 PM | #6 | |
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I had a delay once, about twenty years ago, on a purchase of a handgun. It was eventually changed to a "Proceed," which was fine except that it meant a second trip to the store, which was an hour from home (each way). But it was an old mil-surp that wasn't a particularly common pistol, so it's not like I could just find one closer to home. Apparently the new law requires NICS to notify law enforcement of all denials with 24 hours. If they are processing a delay and they turn up information that changes it to a denial, I can see how the timing might make it difficult for them (NICS) to contact the FFL to get the transferee's full name and address and then transmit that to law enforcement within 24 hours so, although I don't like it, I can understand why they would want the full name and address up front.
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August 5, 2022, 11:55 PM | #7 | |
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The delay can take a year ( extreme example ) Why do they need the info before the denial ? Does the name and address get erased during a delay ? You get denied the day of -ok they have 24hrs , you get delayed 2 days and denied - ok again they again have 24hrs from denial correct ? As far as I can tell the denial is what starts things in motion to start making the contacts . I can see how it could be helpful to whom ever but it would also be easier on LEO if they didn't need warrants either . I just don't think it matters how much more helpful it would be in this context . This is collecting firearms ownership related data with no clear reasoning IMHO . If they can start the 24hr clock the instant you are denied , they can start the clock after a 2 day delay then a denial in the same way . I'm not 100% sure but in CA I don't think they ever get a proceed . If it does not come back delayed or denied inside that 10 days . The store calls you up to come get your item or as I do , I just got pick the item up with in hours of the release date and time .
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If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; August 6, 2022 at 12:06 AM. |
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August 6, 2022, 12:03 AM | #8 | |||
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A delay is not a denial ... unless it subsequently changes to a denial, which would be the event that triggers the law enforcement notification. Quote:
Why would they delete the address information during the delay? That would nullify the reason they collected it in the first place -- if they delete it, they won't have it if the delay becomes a denial. Quote:
Example: The indoor range where I shoot is closed on Mondays, so their shop is closed on Mondays. Say he sold a gun on Friday or Saturday that was put on delay. Monday morning the delay becomes a denial. They can't reach him on Monday because he's closed, and on Tuesday he doesn't open until 11:00 a.m. (or noon -- don't remember exactly). So they can't even reach him within the 24 hours and, once they do reach him, then he has to look up the information for them, and then they have to forward it to law enforcement.
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August 6, 2022, 12:11 AM | #9 | |
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August 6, 2022, 12:18 AM | #10 |
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Did you read the example I just posted? In that example, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for NICS to comply with the 24-hour notification window if they didn't already have the address information, because they couldn't contact the FFL within the 24-hour window.
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August 6, 2022, 12:56 AM | #11 | |
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Your right sorry , I went back and reread this several times . Not sure why I did not process that correctly the first time .
Quote:
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August 6, 2022, 08:46 AM | #12 |
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In the overall scheme of things, what percentage of any particular FFL's transfers do you think result in delays? I've been friends with the guy who runs the range for more than twenty years. Before COVID-19 closed the world, I used to hang around the shop before and/or after shooting for hours, chatting, once or twice a week. There's another small shop (no range) just 3 miles from home where I used to hang out for a few hours every Saturday. I have heard both of those FFLs make innumerable background check calls, and I have never heard a single one come back with either a denial or a delay.
If the intention was to create an excuse to collect data on gun owners, this doesn't seem like a very efficient or effective excuse for doing it. On the other hand, working in a busy [local] government office, I can understand why the law might have set a 24-hour window for reporting denials: if the time frame is longer, it's too easy to forget to do it.
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August 6, 2022, 10:57 AM | #13 |
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Does this mean that lying on a 4473 is actually going to start getting prosecuted?
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August 6, 2022, 11:30 AM | #14 | |
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Remember that when our current President was Vice President, and specifically asked about prosecuting people who lie on the 4473, his answer was "We don't have time for that,,," along with a dismissive hand wave... PERHAPS now that he's been President a while, he has "time for that", but, I doubt it. Remember that we are dealing with several intertwined POSSIBLE criminal acts here, and various jurisdictions and responsibilities of numerous state, local, tribal, AND Federal agencies. Consider. lying on a Federal form is a Federal matter, and a slightly different matter than illegally attempting to obtain a firearm, which MAY be a state/local matter. However, if no firearm was obtained, it may not be in the same class of offense.... What I am seeing with my admittedly murky vision is this act creates both a CYA and a scapegoat for the FED ('we notified local LE,,") when nothing, or very little gets done or changes.
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August 6, 2022, 11:43 AM | #15 |
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I may be too cynical, but my concern would be with the more exuberant local law enforcement offices showing up at your door to demand your firearms - after all, the FBI just told them you are a prohibited person.
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August 6, 2022, 04:21 PM | #16 | |
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There ARE denials that are NOT a result of you being a prohibited person. If, "vigorous" local law people break into your home, (at Zero dark 30) stomp your kitten, shoot your dog, and perhaps worse, a family member or you, BECAUSE the FED gave them your name and incomplete or inaccurate information, who's going to be able to make you whole again? Mere money won't cover it, in my book...
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August 8, 2022, 09:19 AM | #17 | |
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Corollary: What does the FBI NICS do after three days of 'delay'? Do they keep investigating even though the FFL may have proceeded with the transaction? Do they drop it? What are local LEOs expected to do after the three day wait, if they even have a mechanism for tracking?
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August 9, 2022, 08:52 PM | #18 | |
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August 9, 2022, 08:55 PM | #19 | |
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August 9, 2022, 09:07 PM | #20 | |
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Often the information being researched isn't in the FBI databases, but a record held by a state or county. Ive had delays not hit a proceed for three weeks. I have one delay right now that is "open", meaning it hasn't updated to proceed or deny. Several years ago I transferred after the third business day and a month later received a call from NICS telling me he was denied. "Too late!" They just said thank you and that was the last I heard about that transaction.
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