Using cover, crowding cover in IDPA

Glenn E. Meyer · November 30, 2010, 06:22 PM

Thought about this since Sunday. At our local match, we had a couple of stages where using cover was easy to screw up. OOPS for moi!!

However, I noticed that lots of folks crowd cover. They lean against it and stick the gun out in front of cover.

From my tactical (hahaha! I'm so tactical) course, it's a point not to do this as you can have someone just take the gun away as you push it forward in front of cover. I've been called on it.

However, it's kind of a natural tendency to want to hug something when you are in trouble.

So should hugging cover and sticking the gun out in front be a procedural also, to not reinforce a bad habit?

Thoughts?

Glenn

MrBorland · November 30, 2010, 07:12 PM

Gawd - another reason to get gigged with a procedural?

Here's an alternative perspective from a non-SD expert: In some SD situations, you may not have the luxury to not crowd cover, so shooting from crowded cover might be considered just another skill.

I'd put it up there with Weaver vs isosceles. The former possibly allows quicker lateral movement, so might be better in a SD situation, yet it's the shooters' choice which to adopt.

Just my $0.02.

Strick · November 30, 2010, 08:15 PM

The time and position it cost you is penalty enough, giving a PE for bad form would be a slippery slope. That would be the same as giving a procedural for shooting in a weaver stance vs. isosceles.

Beyond that how does a SO judge it? As an SO and MD I stand behind the shooter not to their side even with the barricade so I would have to guess if or how far their gun is sticking out past the barricade.

Glenn E. Meyer · December 1, 2010, 02:32 PM

How about if their hand is in front of cover? Use the wrist as a boundary. I've SO'ed and been a match director, so I feel your pain.

It's just part of the great is IDPA really related to being tacticool, I suppose?

Just some thoughts.

WESHOOT2 · December 2, 2010, 08:58 AM

No. Game.

Glenn E. Meyer · December 2, 2010, 10:41 AM

I know that

. Ah, I don't want to start this old one running again. I just try not to crowd cover as building a bad reflex path but I saw one of our best shooters do this.

Maybe I'll use a dead horse for cover.

WESHOOT2 · December 2, 2010, 10:47 AM

Cover is a tool when used properly, and a detriment to survival when not.

Crowding cover is rarely 'right', unless grenades are being employed.

pax · December 2, 2010, 10:50 AM

Hm. Jim Cirillo taught me how to hug cover safely.

I'd hate to get a procedural for using a skillset that Cirillo thought might save someone's life.

pax

WESHOOT2 · December 2, 2010, 10:57 AM

Not 'never', just 'rarely'.

jimbob86 · December 2, 2010, 11:17 AM

I noticed the same thing when I used to go to matches. Some R/O's called it, and some were just kinda there...... some said "Don't do this, because ....." during the walk thruough, and then ignored it during the match.

I always wanted to have a plaster lathe on a pivot rigged to fall on an offenders hand/gun..... maybe with "CHOP! CHOP! CHOP!" written on it with sharpie.

RickB · December 2, 2010, 12:58 PM

I saw an interesting demonstration by Massad Ayoob on one of the shooting shows. When he stood in a position that allowed the most natural shooting stance, well back from cover, the threat could "see" him by moving about five feet laterally from its cover position. When the shooter moves inboard and closer to cover, the shooting position (speed/accuracy) is somewhat compromised, but in order for the threat to see much of you, it has to move about fifteen feet from cover. So, there certainly can be a "tactical" advantage staying close/deep in your cover position, but your score will probably suffer. I always try to position myself for the most natural shooting position that's still consistent with the cover requirements of the rules. If someone were shooting at me, I'm sure I'd change that.

WESHOOT2 · December 2, 2010, 07:15 PM

I ask myself "Am I coming? or going?"

Know what I mean?
Know I ain't a cop.

Brit · December 6, 2010, 10:42 PM

The reality of cover, real cover, is you do not take this kind of cover, in real fights with guns. IDPA is a sport shooting game, with rules, mostly for safety reasons.

The instant you hide behind "Cover" you are frozen! STILL! Trapped! So if you pop out and fire one shot, then start to "Pie" this corner? With the Hi Cap 9s very popular with gang bangers, and young criminals, if this is a real scenario? And you fire a shot from a door way? With 2 or 3 friends with them? as is the scenario for lots of stages in IDPA matches.

Think how many rounds could be thrown your way from two of these guys, with full magazine hi cap 9 mm's. 10/12/15? And you are pieing a corner? Sure.

So, it is a great sport for practicing draw and fire, from concealment, hands sticking out or not! ... HULLO! No not reality gun fight reality.

But real? No Sir.

WESHOOT2 · December 7, 2010, 07:37 AM

I discussed this on Sunday with LE trainer-friend. Cover must be employed correctly based on the immediate circumstances.

doofus47 · December 8, 2010, 11:40 AM

Quote:

From my tactical (hahaha! I'm so tactical) course, it's a point not to do this as you can have someone just take the gun away as you push it forward in front of cover. I've been called on it.

Ok, I volunteer to stick my foot in my mouth first:
If your biggest worry in the midst of a gun fight is having an un-armed someone ninja-up to your corner hoping to time your movement for sticking your pistol around a door frame while shooting so he/she can steal your handgun while you're shooting it, then you're golden.

Pardon the run-on sentence, Mrs. Brown.

jimbob86 · December 8, 2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:

If your biggest worry in the midst of a gun fight is having an un-armed someone ninja-up to your corner hoping to time your movement for sticking your pistol around a door frame while shooting so he/she can steal your handgun while you're shooting it, then you're golden.

Not necessarily stealing it. Apart from the possibility that he might SHOOT you in the hands, or whack them/the gun with a bat/shovel/broomstick/golf club, staying around the corner/ back from the door frame does not let him know where you are. Hell, if he has a decent caliber gun, and that wall is not concrete (2 pieces of 1/2" drywall and a 2x4?) then that wall is not so much "cover" as "concealment": Use it.

It does not take a ninja to see a gun and hands sticking through a doorway, figure out about where the body is that is attached to those hands, and put 1/2 a dozen bullets through the wall.

doofus47 · December 8, 2010, 01:40 PM

Quote:

put 1/2 a dozen bullets through the wall.

exactly.

Now THAT would be near the top of things that I would worry about in a gun fight.

jimbob86 · December 8, 2010, 02:04 PM

Quote:

put 1/2 a dozen bullets through the wall.

exactly.

Now THAT would be near the top of things that I would worry about in a gun fight.

So, to keep such a person from doing that: don't let him know where you are.

Don't crowd the "cover"/ use the concealment. Pie the room, such that only one guy can see you at a time.

Glenn E. Meyer · December 8, 2010, 05:33 PM

In a FOF, with some police - I was hidden in the depths of a dark room with a nice angle. I shot (not real bullets), the inner thigh of a leg that came out first.

I also saw a nice gun stick out and I shot that for fun. Could have waited but why?

I think I said before in a couple of professional FOF sessions, I was scolded for leading with the gun. Thus, I try to avoid and my OP.

warningshot · December 9, 2010, 03:22 AM

The authors of the IDPA rule book, BW himself and his little match officals know very, very little on the suject of real world tactical pistol fighting. Many of these self proclaimed definsive shooting organizers have never carried or used guns in the normal course of employment, they never served the Military in a forward area, their firearms related work has not been adopted or publically recognized by any state level law enforcement agencey or training academy. There is little wonder when its commercial particpants find the application of certain rules a bit confusing.

Glenn E. Meyer · December 9, 2010, 04:06 PM

I'm not tuned into the national level but some of our local guys do have military and/or police experience. They do play by the game rules. We have active service shoot with us.

The IDPA journal has said it's not training quite a few times.

ATW525 · December 9, 2010, 04:36 PM

Crowding cover could mean eating a ricochet if somebody is actually shooting back at you: http://www.combatshootingandtactics....f_cover_07.pdf

However, I don't know if IDPA really needs procedurals for it.

RickB · December 9, 2010, 05:18 PM

Quote:

The authors of the IDPA rule book, BW himself and his little match officals know very, very little on the suject of real world tactical pistol fighting. Many of these self proclaimed definsive shooting organizers have never carried or used guns in the normal course of employment, they never served the Military in a forward area, their firearms related work has not been adopted or publically recognized by any state level law enforcement agencey or training academy. There is little wonder when its commercial particpants find the application of certain rules a bit confusing.

Walt Rauch was a cop and Secret Service Agent, and Larry Vickers spent a few years in the army, so they may have a little background.

warningshot · December 10, 2010, 04:38 AM

Remember, you may catch a pre-ricochect when being fired upon too. Both count.

I am aware of RW and LV's experience level and it is painfully obvious their combined contributions have been marginalized by those whom know less.

The lead dog always gets bitten on the butt.

Do yourself a favor, try to enjoy the sport and don't let the guy with the clipboard and the porkchop get your goat.

Brit · December 10, 2010, 06:02 AM

My Club has big matches, big re amount of competitors, big re pro stages.

Last one 115 competitors.

When acting in the SO you tend to make the odd comment to a new shooter, their 1st match!

You want them, first, to be safe, and you do want them to come back! So they should have a good time. One such gent, fumbling a reload from kneeling,
started to break the 180! I was hands on his hand, so he couldn't! "I am so sorry" he said after his nerve wracking stage.

I gave him a wee demo on the laser rule, and down range is that way! a big smile, he will be back.

One major component of IDPA, and I recognize it is not training as such, the difference in comfort with drawing from concealment, actual skill in hitting the targets, were shooting in different cadences becomes easy, two shots, three or 4/5/6. All skills not available at the local shoot straight on their own.

Watching the hot shots! Seeing what pistols they use (not double/single action!)

And of course, meeting nice people.

November 30, 2010, 06:22 PM	#1
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Using cover, crowding cover in IDPA Thought about this since Sunday. At our local match, we had a couple of stages where using cover was easy to screw up. OOPS for moi!! However, I noticed that lots of folks crowd cover. They lean against it and stick the gun out in front of cover. From my tactical (hahaha! I'm so tactical) course, it's a point not to do this as you can have someone just take the gun away as you push it forward in front of cover. I've been called on it. However, it's kind of a natural tendency to want to hug something when you are in trouble. So should hugging cover and sticking the gun out in front be a procedural also, to not reinforce a bad habit? Thoughts? Glenn __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 30, 2010, 07:12 PM	#2
MrBorland Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 2,614	Gawd - another reason to get gigged with a procedural? Here's an alternative perspective from a non-SD expert: In some SD situations, you may not have the luxury to not crowd cover, so shooting from crowded cover might be considered just another skill. I'd put it up there with Weaver vs isosceles. The former possibly allows quicker lateral movement, so might be better in a SD situation, yet it's the shooters' choice which to adopt. Just my $0.02. Last edited by MrBorland; December 1, 2010 at 08:01 AM.

November 30, 2010, 08:15 PM	#3
Strick Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Katy, TX Posts: 67	The time and position it cost you is penalty enough, giving a PE for bad form would be a slippery slope. That would be the same as giving a procedural for shooting in a weaver stance vs. isosceles. Beyond that how does a SO judge it? As an SO and MD I stand behind the shooter not to their side even with the barricade so I would have to guess if or how far their gun is sticking out past the barricade. __________________ Click for my shooting blog

December 1, 2010, 02:32 PM	#4
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	How about if their hand is in front of cover? Use the wrist as a boundary. I've SO'ed and been a match director, so I feel your pain. It's just part of the great is IDPA really related to being tacticool, I suppose? Just some thoughts. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 2, 2010, 08:58 AM	#5
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	No. Game. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 2, 2010, 10:41 AM	#6
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I know that . Ah, I don't want to start this old one running again. I just try not to crowd cover as building a bad reflex path but I saw one of our best shooters do this. Maybe I'll use a dead horse for cover. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 2, 2010, 10:47 AM	#7
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	real life Cover is a tool when used properly, and a detriment to survival when not. Crowding cover is rarely 'right', unless grenades are being employed. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" Last edited by WESHOOT2; December 2, 2010 at 10:48 AM. Reason: space, and angles....

December 2, 2010, 10:50 AM	#8
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Hm. Jim Cirillo taught me how to hug cover safely. I'd hate to get a procedural for using a skillset that Cirillo thought might save someone's life. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

December 2, 2010, 10:57 AM	#9
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	obtuse angles(?) Not 'never', just 'rarely'. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 2, 2010, 11:17 AM	#10
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	I noticed the same thing when I used to go to matches. Some R/O's called it, and some were just kinda there...... some said "Don't do this, because ....." during the walk thruough, and then ignored it during the match. I always wanted to have a plaster lathe on a pivot rigged to fall on an offenders hand/gun..... maybe with "CHOP! CHOP! CHOP!" written on it with sharpie.

December 2, 2010, 12:58 PM	#11
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I saw an interesting demonstration by Massad Ayoob on one of the shooting shows. When he stood in a position that allowed the most natural shooting stance, well back from cover, the threat could "see" him by moving about five feet laterally from its cover position. When the shooter moves inboard and closer to cover, the shooting position (speed/accuracy) is somewhat compromised, but in order for the threat to see much of you, it has to move about fifteen feet from cover. So, there certainly can be a "tactical" advantage staying close/deep in your cover position, but your score will probably suffer. I always try to position myself for the most natural shooting position that's still consistent with the cover requirements of the rules. If someone were shooting at me, I'm sure I'd change that.

December 2, 2010, 07:15 PM	#12
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	concerning 'cover' I ask myself "Am I coming? or going?" Know what I mean? Know I ain't a cop. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 6, 2010, 10:42 PM	#13
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	Cover? Why> The reality of cover, real cover, is you do not take this kind of cover, in real fights with guns. IDPA is a sport shooting game, with rules, mostly for safety reasons. The instant you hide behind "Cover" you are frozen! STILL! Trapped! So if you pop out and fire one shot, then start to "Pie" this corner? With the Hi Cap 9s very popular with gang bangers, and young criminals, if this is a real scenario? And you fire a shot from a door way? With 2 or 3 friends with them? as is the scenario for lots of stages in IDPA matches. Think how many rounds could be thrown your way from two of these guys, with full magazine hi cap 9 mm's. 10/12/15? And you are pieing a corner? Sure. So, it is a great sport for practicing draw and fire, from concealment, hands sticking out or not! ... HULLO! No not reality gun fight reality. But real? No Sir.

December 7, 2010, 07:37 AM	#14
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	actual I discussed this on Sunday with LE trainer-friend. Cover must be employed correctly based on the immediate circumstances. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 8, 2010, 05:33 PM	#19
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	In a FOF, with some police - I was hidden in the depths of a dark room with a nice angle. I shot (not real bullets), the inner thigh of a leg that came out first. I also saw a nice gun stick out and I shot that for fun. Could have waited but why? I think I said before in a couple of professional FOF sessions, I was scolded for leading with the gun. Thus, I try to avoid and my OP. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 9, 2010, 03:22 AM	#20
warningshot Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2009 Posts: 995	Look-out! Here comes some rock throwing The authors of the IDPA rule book, BW himself and his little match officals know very, very little on the suject of real world tactical pistol fighting. Many of these self proclaimed definsive shooting organizers have never carried or used guns in the normal course of employment, they never served the Military in a forward area, their firearms related work has not been adopted or publically recognized by any state level law enforcement agencey or training academy. There is little wonder when its commercial particpants find the application of certain rules a bit confusing.

December 9, 2010, 04:06 PM	#21
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I'm not tuned into the national level but some of our local guys do have military and/or police experience. They do play by the game rules. We have active service shoot with us. The IDPA journal has said it's not training quite a few times. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 9, 2010, 04:36 PM	#22
ATW525 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 2,723	Crowding cover could mean eating a ricochet if somebody is actually shooting back at you: http://www.combatshootingandtactics....f_cover_07.pdf However, I don't know if IDPA really needs procedurals for it.

December 10, 2010, 04:38 AM	#24
warningshot Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2009 Posts: 995	Remember, you may catch a pre-ricochect when being fired upon too. Both count. I am aware of RW and LV's experience level and it is painfully obvious their combined contributions have been marginalized by those whom know less. The lead dog always gets bitten on the butt. Do yourself a favor, try to enjoy the sport and don't let the guy with the clipboard and the porkchop get your goat.

December 10, 2010, 06:02 AM	#25
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	IDPA the Positive side My Club has big matches, big re amount of competitors, big re pro stages. Last one 115 competitors. When acting in the SO you tend to make the odd comment to a new shooter, their 1st match! You want them, first, to be safe, and you do want them to come back! So they should have a good time. One such gent, fumbling a reload from kneeling, started to break the 180! I was hands on his hand, so he couldn't! "I am so sorry" he said after his nerve wracking stage. I gave him a wee demo on the laser rule, and down range is that way! a big smile, he will be back. One major component of IDPA, and I recognize it is not training as such, the difference in comfort with drawing from concealment, actual skill in hitting the targets, were shooting in different cadences becomes easy, two shots, three or 4/5/6. All skills not available at the local shoot straight on their own. Watching the hot shots! Seeing what pistols they use (not double/single action!) And of course, meeting nice people.