First Real Attempts at "Accuracy"

NorthernBlue · September 17, 2016, 08:08 PM

So I was given a 3x Vortex Spitfire prism scope for my birthday. I stuck it on my Ruger AR556 and took to the range with a few different loads. I did some small 5 shot groups yesterday which showed me what range to get in as well as approx velocities as I had access to a chrono.

I settled on H335 to push 60gr VMAX and 68gr BTHP as BLC2 wasn't doing so hot for me.

See the photos for targets and data from today. There were a few malfuctions, one of the was a double feed, so I tossed those two rounds and the others were just failure to fires due to a bad primer.

I am not seeing a huge different in the groupings, I am sure that has everything to do with myself and my low powder scope. Just looking for general thoughts from fellow reloaders.

60gr VMAX 24, 24.5, 25 gr of H335 and a CCI 450 Primer

NorthernBlue · September 17, 2016, 08:09 PM

68gr BTHP 23.8, 24, 24.2, 24.5gr of H335 and a CCI 450 Primer

John C · September 18, 2016, 02:15 PM

For a first attempt, that looks pretty good. However, I think you need to establish a baseline accuracy for your rifle. How good of a shooter are you? Maybe you might ask a friend who's a really good rifle shooter (a match shooter) shoot your rifle and see how much of error is you versus the rifle.

Also, you can try shooting your rifle (or better yet, have your good shooter shoot your rifle) with match grade factory ammo, like Federal Gold Medal Match. At that point, you'll know what your rifle can do, what you can do, and what you and your rifle can do. Then add your reloads, and understand how they're doing. There are a lot of variables.

At that point, if you want more accuracy, then you can start tweaking your rifle. A free floating hand guard, match trigger, and shimming the receiver fit can tighten things up. You can also work on shooting better groups.

Reloadron · September 18, 2016, 03:23 PM

Not bad at all and with time. patience and practice the groups will shrink. If you didn't use any, you may want to get some sand bags or similar and shoot off the bags or similar rest. Nice job of keeping track of the targets and load data. I noticed the outside air temp and then the location. Alaska is beginning to show its beautiful Fall colors look.

Ron

RC20 · September 18, 2016, 03:33 PM

Rabbit Creek Range.

I don't know the accuracy level of the rifle.

However, to wring it out you need a front and rear rest, then you can start to see.

Frustrating process until you get a good load and can see the gains or losses as you change it, COAL, as well as other powders and bullet combos.

NorthernBlue · September 18, 2016, 08:18 PM

Thanks for the response guys. I will pick up some match ammo and give a shot next weekend. Should I shoot all 20 rounds at one target or do 3, 5, or 10 shot groups? I figure 10 and 20 shot groups give a good averaging effect.

I have some bags I was using, but the front ones are a little small for an AR so I used one of the white sandbags they have laying around for the front, however, the little green rear bag worked fine.

Online reviews show people shooting 1 MOA group with this rifle, but then again I don't know what they aren't showing either.

I have about 1500 rounds through this rifle and while I clean the bore with Hoppes 9, I never did a good copper fouling removal. I got some Hoppes Benchrest bore cleaner and I have been pulling out blue patches all day, re applying and pulling more blue patches out. I don't know if that will make a difference or not.

Further, with the 3x scope, I found it hard to always be sure I was aiming exactly at the same spot each time at 100 yards....is that normal?

FM12 · September 18, 2016, 08:41 PM

Don't knock your groups. I've had mini14s that wouldn't stay on a double newspaper target at 100 yards.

If H335 cant get it done, give up.

Mobuck · September 20, 2016, 08:24 PM

I don't see much advantage to shooting 8, 10, or 20 shots on a single bull other than getting trigger time. We shoot 3 shots per bull until the accuracy questions are worked out and then go back to put additional shots on the targets for practice or zero confirmations.
A 3x scope should give you the potential for better accuracy than 3-4 MOA. I just turned over an AR to a customer after some customizing and mounting a Vortex dot last weekend. The customer's groups were in the 1" range at 50 yards. Mine were 1/2 that and I'm a geezer.

NorthernBlue · September 23, 2016, 09:16 PM

Did a few more targets today.

Below you have 60gr VMAX loaded over 25gr of H335 and two targets are lit by a 450 primer and the other two a 400 primer...just I had them, so I tired them to see what different it would make. I see none.

NorthernBlue · September 23, 2016, 09:20 PM

Here are some targets where I shot Hornady 55gr TAP FPD, IMI 69gr HPBT, and IMI 77gr HPBT

So I think it has much more to do with me then they rifle or ammo. I know the Ruger AR556 isn't a match rifle, its just a basic AR15 Carbine.

Reloadron · September 24, 2016, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Below you have 60gr VMAX loaded over 25gr of H335 and two targets are lit by a 450 primer and the other two a 400 primer...just I had them, so I tired them to see what different it would make. I see none.

Have you come up with a good steady rest off the bags? As to primers I played that game this summer. The following represents 4 ten shot groups using all CCI primers. I was shooting more to get velocities than groups but as can be seen, using identical loads and brass the CCI SR Magnum primers did not really yield the higher velocity and the H335 spherical propellant really did not fare any better with the magnum primers.

The load data was as follows:
Cartridge: .223 Remington
Powder: Hodgdon H-335
Charge Weight: 26.1gn.
Bullet: Sierra 53gn. HP
Brass: LC-11
Brass Trim: 1.750"
C.O.A.L. : 2.250"

Primer #1: CCI-400 SR 3372 FPS
Primer #2: CCI-450 SRM 3366 FPS
Primer #3: CCI-BR4 SRBR 3384 FPS
Primer #4: CCI-#41 Military 3418 FPS

The CCI #41 and CCI 450 are both classified as small rifle magnum primers. While I was not focused on groups the best result actually came from the CCI-#41 Mil Spec type primers. There was no real velocity difference between the CCI-400 and CCI-450 primers as to velocity. The rifle was a modified Remington 700 series with a 1:12 twist rate.

You may want to work on a good bench steady rest and your holding and squeezing with your breathing. Eith practice I am sure your groups will shrink.

Ron

BWM · September 24, 2016, 01:06 PM

What is the trigger pull weight? That will have a lot to do with your accuracy! I have put Timney in all my AR,S 3 pound or 31/2 pound that will improve your shooting a lot.Let your gun cool down between targets will help also I have also put Timney in my Savages bolt gun that made a big different. GOOD LUCK

jmorris · September 25, 2016, 12:22 AM

What do you have as a baseline?

Do you have decent iron sights, a bench, place to sit, factory ammo and a rest where the rifle won't move around?

What does it do there, then make one change at a time. If it doesn't make things better go back, then in another direction.

No reason to chase 4" groups around.

One can completely take the human element out of it like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vpDm1bpey4

And even with things that are not "supposed" to be that accurate can do pretty good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1L4EJAcnhY

With the above rest the rifle is locked down enough where it won't move that much if you aim it before you load and chamber a round.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng39ce3Ii_w

Longshot4 · September 25, 2016, 11:24 AM

I have seen ARs do better although you are in the right place for starts. I would stay with 10 round groups, 60 Vmax seams to like your twist. 450 primer for now with the powder H 335. Of course a good steady rest is required as most of the other threads have brought up.

Your sight has a size at 100 Yd. and your target should give you a 1/4" larger picture outline. For example if spec. on the sight at 100 Yds. is 1" at 100 Yds. You may need a target of 1 1/2 inch at 100 so you can have a fine 1/4" outline for your gun sight to see it.

I am no expert but perhaps some one on this sight can comment.

NorthernBlue · September 25, 2016, 07:45 PM

The trigger pull is the stock mil-spec trigger, 6.5 lbs or so I would guess.

My bench rest is just a sand bag as seen in the top photo.

Here is a photo of the sight.

As far as my current technique, when I am firing, I inhale, exhale, and on the pause, press the trigger slowly adding more and more pressure until it breaks the shot. I repeat the process for the follow up shots, usually allowing 10 or 15 seconds between the shots and a few minutes between each group.

firewrench044 · September 26, 2016, 09:09 AM

Get a good trigger
( 6 1/2 lb is too stiff )
( it will tighten up your groups )
( helps eliminate you as a problem )

Some prefer a single stage trigger, set at 3 to 3 1/2 lbs

Some prefer, and for competition, a 2 stage trigger, set
at 4 lb 1st stage and 1/2 bl 2nd stage

I prefer a 2 stage

A good trigger is going to cost more but it is worth
the extra expense

Chainsaw. · September 28, 2016, 01:27 PM

As stated above a trigger is a good place to improve on a ruger 556. I got one for the wife, the trigger was something terrible. I did a mini trigger job on it, basically just polishing all the grit out of it, its still long and heavy but MUCH smoother. That alone helped alot. I would NOT recommend diving into this task unless you have trigger work experience and have means to keep your stones at the proper angle. The ar15 trigger sear is tiny and therefore easy to screw up. Anyway.

Next is breathing, pulse rate yadda yadda i you dont already know.

Then comes the ammo, chasing accuracy can be.....interesting. Tiny nuances can make big differences, or not.

All that said, you're not doing bad.

NorthernBlue · October 23, 2016, 02:14 AM

So my wife got my the Ruger Elite 452 trigger. It is a 4 1/2 lb 2 stage trigger. I added that along with a free float hand guard. I did the hand guard more for comfort then accuracy.

I still don't have a good set of bags or anything like that. Just using one bag up front, one hand on the pistol grip and the other seating the stock into my shoulder.

IMI 77 BTHP

IMI 69 BTHP

TAP 55 FPD

John C · October 23, 2016, 08:29 PM

Great work! That's a noticeable improvement. What kind of scope are you using? That might be another area of improvement.

KEYBEAR · October 23, 2016, 09:02 PM

The op is doing well with what he has . A 3 power scope is not a target scope . With that set up you are doing very well .

Do not think groups of 1/4 inch is really possible with your setup .
Having shot a lot of bench rest and loving the 223 I started with a Rem 700 PSS rifle with a 24 power scope in 1984 . I could read the date on a dime at 100 yards That is important . ( can not do that today) Today I still shoot the 223 but a lot has changed . Today I am using a heavy bench rifle a good 36-x scope and at 70 years of age on a good day i still shoot a big 1/4 inch

September 24, 2016, 01:06 PM	#12
BWM Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2013 Location: SW IN Posts: 438	What is the trigger pull weight? That will have a lot to do with your accuracy! I have put Timney in all my AR,S 3 pound or 31/2 pound that will improve your shooting a lot.Let your gun cool down between targets will help also I have also put Timney in my Savages bolt gun that made a big different. GOOD LUCK __________________ Man that likes guns. Navy. USS Ponchatoula AO 148 USS Vesuvius AE 15 Last edited by BWM; September 24, 2016 at 01:12 PM.

September 25, 2016, 12:22 AM	#13
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	What do you have as a baseline? Do you have decent iron sights, a bench, place to sit, factory ammo and a rest where the rifle won't move around? What does it do there, then make one change at a time. If it doesn't make things better go back, then in another direction. No reason to chase 4" groups around. One can completely take the human element out of it like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vpDm1bpey4 And even with things that are not "supposed" to be that accurate can do pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1L4EJAcnhY With the above rest the rifle is locked down enough where it won't move that much if you aim it before you load and chamber a round. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng39ce3Ii_w Last edited by jmorris; September 25, 2016 at 12:29 AM.

September 17, 2016, 08:08 PM	#1
NorthernBlue Member Join Date: July 29, 2016 Location: Alaska Posts: 56	First Real Attempts at "Accuracy" So I was given a 3x Vortex Spitfire prism scope for my birthday. I stuck it on my Ruger AR556 and took to the range with a few different loads. I did some small 5 shot groups yesterday which showed me what range to get in as well as approx velocities as I had access to a chrono. I settled on H335 to push 60gr VMAX and 68gr BTHP as BLC2 wasn't doing so hot for me. See the photos for targets and data from today. There were a few malfuctions, one of the was a double feed, so I tossed those two rounds and the others were just failure to fires due to a bad primer. I am not seeing a huge different in the groupings, I am sure that has everything to do with myself and my low powder scope. Just looking for general thoughts from fellow reloaders. 60gr VMAX 24, 24.5, 25 gr of H335 and a CCI 450 Primer

September 17, 2016, 08:09 PM	#2
NorthernBlue Member Join Date: July 29, 2016 Location: Alaska Posts: 56	68gr BTHP 23.8, 24, 24.2, 24.5gr of H335 and a CCI 450 Primer

September 18, 2016, 02:15 PM	#3
John C Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2005 Posts: 127	For a first attempt, that looks pretty good. However, I think you need to establish a baseline accuracy for your rifle. How good of a shooter are you? Maybe you might ask a friend who's a really good rifle shooter (a match shooter) shoot your rifle and see how much of error is you versus the rifle. Also, you can try shooting your rifle (or better yet, have your good shooter shoot your rifle) with match grade factory ammo, like Federal Gold Medal Match. At that point, you'll know what your rifle can do, what you can do, and what you and your rifle can do. Then add your reloads, and understand how they're doing. There are a lot of variables. At that point, if you want more accuracy, then you can start tweaking your rifle. A free floating hand guard, match trigger, and shimming the receiver fit can tighten things up. You can also work on shooting better groups.

September 18, 2016, 03:23 PM	#4
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	Not bad at all and with time. patience and practice the groups will shrink. If you didn't use any, you may want to get some sand bags or similar and shoot off the bags or similar rest. Nice job of keeping track of the targets and load data. I noticed the outside air temp and then the location. Alaska is beginning to show its beautiful Fall colors look. Ron

September 18, 2016, 03:33 PM	#5
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Rabbit Creek Range. I don't know the accuracy level of the rifle. However, to wring it out you need a front and rear rest, then you can start to see. Frustrating process until you get a good load and can see the gains or losses as you change it, COAL, as well as other powders and bullet combos.

September 18, 2016, 08:18 PM	#6
NorthernBlue Member Join Date: July 29, 2016 Location: Alaska Posts: 56	Thanks for the response guys. I will pick up some match ammo and give a shot next weekend. Should I shoot all 20 rounds at one target or do 3, 5, or 10 shot groups? I figure 10 and 20 shot groups give a good averaging effect. I have some bags I was using, but the front ones are a little small for an AR so I used one of the white sandbags they have laying around for the front, however, the little green rear bag worked fine. Online reviews show people shooting 1 MOA group with this rifle, but then again I don't know what they aren't showing either. I have about 1500 rounds through this rifle and while I clean the bore with Hoppes 9, I never did a good copper fouling removal. I got some Hoppes Benchrest bore cleaner and I have been pulling out blue patches all day, re applying and pulling more blue patches out. I don't know if that will make a difference or not. Further, with the 3x scope, I found it hard to always be sure I was aiming exactly at the same spot each time at 100 yards....is that normal?

September 18, 2016, 08:41 PM	#7
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Don't knock your groups. I've had mini14s that wouldn't stay on a double newspaper target at 100 yards. If H335 cant get it done, give up.

September 20, 2016, 08:24 PM	#8
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	I don't see much advantage to shooting 8, 10, or 20 shots on a single bull other than getting trigger time. We shoot 3 shots per bull until the accuracy questions are worked out and then go back to put additional shots on the targets for practice or zero confirmations. A 3x scope should give you the potential for better accuracy than 3-4 MOA. I just turned over an AR to a customer after some customizing and mounting a Vortex dot last weekend. The customer's groups were in the 1" range at 50 yards. Mine were 1/2 that and I'm a geezer.

September 23, 2016, 09:16 PM	#9
NorthernBlue Member Join Date: July 29, 2016 Location: Alaska Posts: 56	Did a few more targets today. Below you have 60gr VMAX loaded over 25gr of H335 and two targets are lit by a 450 primer and the other two a 400 primer...just I had them, so I tired them to see what different it would make. I see none.

September 23, 2016, 09:20 PM	#10
NorthernBlue Member Join Date: July 29, 2016 Location: Alaska Posts: 56	Here are some targets where I shot Hornady 55gr TAP FPD, IMI 69gr HPBT, and IMI 77gr HPBT So I think it has much more to do with me then they rifle or ammo. I know the Ruger AR556 isn't a match rifle, its just a basic AR15 Carbine.

September 25, 2016, 11:24 AM	#14
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	I have seen ARs do better although you are in the right place for starts. I would stay with 10 round groups, 60 Vmax seams to like your twist. 450 primer for now with the powder H 335. Of course a good steady rest is required as most of the other threads have brought up. Your sight has a size at 100 Yd. and your target should give you a 1/4" larger picture outline. For example if spec. on the sight at 100 Yds. is 1" at 100 Yds. You may need a target of 1 1/2 inch at 100 so you can have a fine 1/4" outline for your gun sight to see it. I am no expert but perhaps some one on this sight can comment.

September 25, 2016, 07:45 PM	#15
NorthernBlue Member Join Date: July 29, 2016 Location: Alaska Posts: 56	The trigger pull is the stock mil-spec trigger, 6.5 lbs or so I would guess. My bench rest is just a sand bag as seen in the top photo. Here is a photo of the sight. As far as my current technique, when I am firing, I inhale, exhale, and on the pause, press the trigger slowly adding more and more pressure until it breaks the shot. I repeat the process for the follow up shots, usually allowing 10 or 15 seconds between the shots and a few minutes between each group.

September 26, 2016, 09:09 AM	#16
firewrench044 Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2007 Location: Fort Pierce, Florida Posts: 381	Get a good trigger ( 6 1/2 lb is too stiff ) ( it will tighten up your groups ) ( helps eliminate you as a problem ) Some prefer a single stage trigger, set at 3 to 3 1/2 lbs Some prefer, and for competition, a 2 stage trigger, set at 4 lb 1st stage and 1/2 bl 2nd stage I prefer a 2 stage A good trigger is going to cost more but it is worth the extra expense

September 28, 2016, 01:27 PM	#17
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	As stated above a trigger is a good place to improve on a ruger 556. I got one for the wife, the trigger was something terrible. I did a mini trigger job on it, basically just polishing all the grit out of it, its still long and heavy but MUCH smoother. That alone helped alot. I would NOT recommend diving into this task unless you have trigger work experience and have means to keep your stones at the proper angle. The ar15 trigger sear is tiny and therefore easy to screw up. Anyway. Next is breathing, pulse rate yadda yadda i you dont already know. Then comes the ammo, chasing accuracy can be.....interesting. Tiny nuances can make big differences, or not. All that said, you're not doing bad.

October 23, 2016, 02:14 AM	#18
NorthernBlue Member Join Date: July 29, 2016 Location: Alaska Posts: 56	So my wife got my the Ruger Elite 452 trigger. It is a 4 1/2 lb 2 stage trigger. I added that along with a free float hand guard. I did the hand guard more for comfort then accuracy. I still don't have a good set of bags or anything like that. Just using one bag up front, one hand on the pistol grip and the other seating the stock into my shoulder. IMI 77 BTHP IMI 69 BTHP TAP 55 FPD

October 23, 2016, 08:29 PM	#19
John C Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2005 Posts: 127	Great work! That's a noticeable improvement. What kind of scope are you using? That might be another area of improvement.

October 23, 2016, 09:02 PM	#20
KEYBEAR Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 1,059	The op is doing well with what he has . A 3 power scope is not a target scope . With that set up you are doing very well . Do not think groups of 1/4 inch is really possible with your setup . Having shot a lot of bench rest and loving the 223 I started with a Rem 700 PSS rifle with a 24 power scope in 1984 . I could read the date on a dime at 100 yards That is important . ( can not do that today) Today I still shoot the 223 but a lot has changed . Today I am using a heavy bench rifle a good 36-x scope and at 70 years of age on a good day i still shoot a big 1/4 inch