Rem's Heavy Density Pellets vs Buckshot Lead Pellets

[TheKlawMan]

I do not want to start just another what is the best HD ammo thread, but wish some info on the so called "heavy density" Tungsten-Bronze-Iron Pellets used in Remington's HD Ultimate Home Defense shotshells; specifically 12 gauge. They are advertised as "even heavier than standard lead pellets and retain higher energy for greater stopping power."

Here is a Chyck Hawks article on it. http://www.chuckhawks.com/remington_...shotshells.htm
It seems to say that the Wingmaster pellets are about 10% denser than lead shot.

Per this one http://gunnuts.net/2009/09/08/new-hd...rom-remington/ theh pellets are the same as those in the Wingmaster HD hunitng loads.

My guess is that, given that the pellets are 10% denser than regular shot, the BB size pellets with a diameter of 4.57 mm should have about the same weight as a bit of lead shot with a diameter of 5.03 mm. #4 Buck has a nominal diameter of 6.00 mm.

Some suggest that instead of using Remmie's HD Ultimate you should use the Wingmaster HD shells, which cost much less. I got my HD Ultimate at half off so the price differential isn't much.

I also note that the Wingmaster HD only comes in 3" and 3-1/2" and that they have a greater velocity which may negate their use for HD in urban areas and residences shared with other occupants. (HD ULtimate has a velocity of 1250 FPS and Wingmaser HD's is 1325 FPS. Both hold 1-1/4 ounce of pellets.)

I might add that I wanted defense ammuntion that could be used in my 870, which is chambered for 3", and my Skeet gun chambered for 2-3/4". I also didn't mind paying a few cents extra for the Home Defense label, which may be important should a situation ever arise.

In sum, it seems to me that Remington's HD Ultimate Home Defense ammo should penetrate deeper than the typical birdshot that some advocate for HD, say #4 or #6 birdshot, but it should have less penetration than the smallest buckshot; #4 Buckshot, not to be confused with #4 birdshot.

Do I have things about right?

[TheKlawMan]

I am a voice in the wilderness.

I tore into a round of 12 gauge Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense ammo today to see what gives. While classifed as birdshot, this is nothing like the small stuff such as is used for target shooting.

I took a pic and if I can figure out how to post it I will.

Hawks claimed that it is denser than lead shot and my analysis confirmed that a single High Density BB weighs just about as much as a single lead BBB pellet even though a BB has a nominal diameter of .180" as compared to the BBB pellet with its larger diameter of .190". Just what this means as for penetration I am unable to tell, but the same mass being propelled by the same force should penetrate more deeply than the larger pellet with the same energy.

It still isn't going to penetrate like buck shot, but I expect it to do a much better job than what is thought of when persons who don't know any better blow it off as nothing but "birdshot".

I note that while the shells are marketed as containing 1-1/4 (1.25) OZ SHOT the one I disected contined 5% additonal shot by weight.

i admit, though, that when I placed a piece of the high density BB shot next to a piece of 00 buck the buck looked massive.

[TheKlawMan]

These are all the BBs that were in the shot shell.



This is a BB next to 00 Buck. Sorry for the poor quality image but it allows you to compare size.

[TheKlawMan]

Test worked.

[TheKlawMan]

Deleted duplicate

[TheKlawMan]

Jmortimer posted this http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...arious-rounds/ on another thread. It ran gellatin tests for tungsten matrix #1 birdshot and lead bb pellets.

If I read it right, tungsten matrix bb loads should be good for short tactical (home defense) distances.

[jmortimer]

You should check out the Dixie Slugs Tri-Ball. In a rural setting nothing close.
Link to Shotgun World site thread
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=121981
From article Guns and Gear site "Buckshot: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" :
In the article, Bryce M. Towsley reported testing buckshot penetration in wet newspaper. The reported results:
---------------------------------------------------------
#4 Buckshot (.24 / 21 grains): 3.5 inches

#1 Buckshot (.30 / 40 grains): 5 inches

#00 Buckshot (.33 / 54 grains): 7 inches

.30-30, 170 grain soft point: 14 inches (control load)

The Tri-Ball goes two feet plus in wet news paper compared to 7" for the OO buckshot. Amazing.

[TheKlawMan]

Reviewing the mess I posted, I realized that I failed to make it clear that the load I was examining was Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense 12 gauge BB ammo. You can buy the same stuff, Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense, with a mixture of #2 and #4 birdshot (not buckshot but birdshot). All pellets, BB, #2, and #4, are tunsten-bronze-iron. This thread is about the BB loads.

Extrapolating from the Robert Farago review and what he says of #1 lead birdshot, I suspect that Remington's mixed load of #2 and #4 tungsten matrix loads would fare about as well as the #1 birdshot.

Consideration of this load should be limited to an application where an engagement is guaranteed to be very close range and overpenetration is a significant and unacceptable risk.

[Upon further review, I see that at least one of the loads of #1 birdshot that he reviewed was a tungsten matrix and now I doubt that Remington's #2/#4 Duplex Load would fare quite as well as the #1 tested by Farago. I am not saying that it isn't a good choice under the above quoted circumstances, but it may not be as good as #1 tungsten matrix. If you are going to go to it, you may want to heed Fargo's caveat about being ready to follow up with larger shot if needed to stop a threat.]

That sounds to me like some individual home defense situtations. Most all are gauranteed to be at under 20 feet and some, depending on the layout of homes and rooms, involve an unacceptable risk of injuring others due to over penetration.

[TheKlawMan]

Alas, jmortimer, I am in anything but a rural setting in my part of CA. While things aren't as dense as where the rich folk live in Newport Beach, firing of some buck and ball or slugs may not be the best thing for the neighbors. (If only the guy across the street with the AK-47, and AR-15 clone, and a 9mm were as considerate.)

Actually, I looked at that and that Dixie load isn't buck and ball, but 3 pieces of .60 calibre buckshot.

[jmortimer]

"Actually, I looked at that and that Dixie load isn't buck and ball, but 3 pieces of .60 calibre buckshot."
Yes - 3 x 320 grains = 960 grains of hard cast .60 caliber lead balls. I think what you are considering would work well based on everything I've seen.