Why are red dot optics not standard from the OEM? - Page 5

turkeestalker · March 24, 2018, 04:26 PM

Don't take that wrong, I like pretty targets too.

Rangerrich99 · March 24, 2018, 04:27 PM

In response to the original question, "Why are red dot optics not standard from the OEM?" I believe the answer is simply cost plus anticipated customer preferences. For example, say I buy a S&W M&P9 and S&W decides to offer all these guns with a red dot from company X for an extra $50 or whatever. Well, what if the customer for whatever reason doesn't want a red dot but something else? Or what if he likes red dots but doesn't like the red dot from company X? At that point, the extra $50 is a waste of money in the eyes of the customer. He/she may at that point decide to buy a gun from another company simply to avoid paying for something they don't want.

Personally, I like red dots enough that I have them on a couple rifles and a shotgun, and for the purposes of those arms I find that they work very well.

I have never considered a red dot on one of my defensive handguns, mostly because of their generally much taller aspect and how that limits my options as holsters are concerned. I have a couple lasers on two of my SD/HD handguns because they are down the side of the gun and so do not require special holsters. And I already have a considerable sum of money invested in the holsters I already have. I'm not terribly excited to research and purchase yet more holsters just to fit a red dot or two. Or three.

I have thought about putting a reflex red dot on my S&W .22 Victory because I do like how much easier it is to aim and shoot over traditional irons, but it's not a defensive gun and I don't even have a holster for it.

Anyway, just my two cents.

rpenmanparker · March 24, 2018, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rangerrich99

In response to the original question, "Why are red dot optics not standard from the OEM?" I believe the answer is simply cost plus anticipated customer preferences. For example, say I buy a S&W M&P9 and S&W decides to offer all these guns with a red dot from company X for an extra $50 or whatever. Well, what if the customer for whatever reason doesn't want a red dot but something else? Or what if he likes red dots but doesn't like the red dot from company X? At that point, the extra $50 is a waste of money in the eyes of the customer. He/she may at that point decide to buy a gun from another company simply to avoid paying for something they don't want.

Personally, I like red dots enough that I have them on a couple rifles and a shotgun, and for the purposes of those arms I find that they work very well.

I have never considered a red dot on one of my defensive handguns, mostly because of their generally much taller aspect and how that limits my options as holsters are concerned. I have a couple lasers on two of my SD/HD handguns because they are down the side of the gun and so do not require special holsters. And I already have a considerable sum of money invested in the holsters I already have. I'm not terribly excited to research and purchase yet more holsters just to fit a red dot or two. Or three.

I have thought about putting a reflex red dot on my S&W .22 Victory because I do like how much easier it is to aim and shoot over traditional irons, but it's not a defensive gun and I don't even have a holster for it.

Anyway, just my two cents.

The very economical Bushnell TRS-25 works great on the Victory. I have the carbon fiber reinforced lightweight barrel from Volquartsen for mine, and damn, that thing shoots! I like the closed tube red dot for the target .22. It just seems to belong on it. And I really like the 11-position power knob.

See what I said above about holsters that are cut away for the red dot on top of the slide. Mernickle makes a nice product.

rpenmanparker · March 24, 2018, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeestalker

Don't take that wrong, I like pretty targets too.

Fret not. I understood you perfectly.

rpenmanparker · March 24, 2018, 04:55 PM

Here is the SR1911 in the Mernickle holster with clearance for the Sightmark optic:

Mernickle-SR1911.jpg

rpenmanparker · March 24, 2018, 07:30 PM

And here is the LC9s with and without a simple one size fits all holster. Still pretty compact.

LC9s.jpg

LC9s holster.jpg

turkeestalker · March 24, 2018, 07:58 PM

....and those are why I'll stick to irons.

rpenmanparker · March 24, 2018, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkeestalker

....and those are why I'll stick to irons.

Sheesh! What a killjoy.

Bob Wright · March 25, 2018, 04:27 PM

I hope I never see a time when a gun such is this is offered only with a Red Dot sight:

Bob Wright

saleen322 · March 26, 2018, 02:34 AM

Quote:

What is it about “iron” sights that justifies their popularity long after they have lost the battle to red dots? I’m converting my new pistols even before shooting them for the first time. I shoot so much better with a red dot than iron sights it is amazing. Never going back.

Shooting with iron sights is very effective after you get solid experience. Also because of their simplicity they are more reliable than an electronic/optical system.

Nathan · March 26, 2018, 03:48 AM

Price and form factor.

Adding an OEM rds to most pistols would be a 50% price hike at min. Can I sell a M&P 9 with a $200 red dot for $650? How many will complain that is a throwaway rds to be pitched and replaced with an rmr?

The rds is adding quite a bit of size to your pistol. In CCW, this is detrimental imo. On an hd gun, probably a good idea.

rpenmanparker · March 26, 2018, 06:28 AM

Everybody sure likes those RMRs it seems. Damn those things are pricey. I am so satisfied with Sightmark Mini Pro Specs for $100. Sometimes for reasons of mounting idiosyncrasies I need to double that outlay to $200 for a Burris Fastfire 3. They both work great. So far I see no need to go higher than that.

Road_Clam · March 27, 2018, 05:57 AM

I'm typically a handgun irons type guy. About 8 months ago I decided to try a Vortex Venom dot on my FNX45T. I'm still on the fence if I truly like the dot better than irons. The advantage of a dot in my observations seems to be at 25-50 yds. I seem to have more consistent accuracy at longer handgun distances. The problem with a dot is the difficulty in obtaining very quick target acquisition. It takes me longer with a dot. Target acquisition with irons is very quick. Adding a dot to a new mfg firearm would dramatically increase the cost. In this day and age of everyone wanting "cheap" that type of added cost won't fly for boosting new gun sales. YMMV

rpenmanparker · March 27, 2018, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Clam

I'm typically a handgun irons type guy. About 8 months ago I decided to try a Vortex Venom dot on my FNX45T. I'm still on the fence if I truly like the dot better than irons. The advantage of a dot in my observations seems to be at 25-50 yds. I seem to have more consistent accuracy at longer handgun distances. The problem with a dot is the difficulty in obtaining very quick target acquisition. It takes me longer with a dot. Target acquisition with irons is very quick. Adding a dot to a new mfg firearm would dramatically increase the cost. In this day and age of everyone wanting "cheap" that type of added cost won't fly for boosting new gun sales. YMMV

The whole point of red dots is the superior speed of acquisition. That is why they are favored by special forces.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 27, 2018, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker

The whole point of red dots is the superior speed of acquisition. That is why they are favored by special forces.

Perhaps on rifles. Do any special forces, from any nation's military, use red dots on their handguns? Personally, I find red dots [actually, green in my case, since I can't see red dots in many lighting conditions] much slower to acquire than open sights on handguns.

Cheapshooter · March 27, 2018, 10:59 AM

^
This!
I have a great deal of difficulty sometimes finding the dot.
I have absolutely no trouble with point and shoot instinct shooting at SD distance. Most often not even noticing the sights.

turkeestalker · March 27, 2018, 04:21 PM

^^^
Which means you're likely doing things correctly.

rpenmanparker · March 27, 2018, 04:49 PM

Here is an interesting article fairly pointing out advantages and drawbacks to pistol mounted red dots:

https://sofrep.com/97321/red-dot-sights-pistols-2/

Mackie244Bud · March 29, 2018, 06:19 AM

Many manufactures are either offering Red Dot's on their handguns out of the box or like the Glock 19 MOS with the slide milled out and mounting plates.
Article here:
https://www.personaldefenseworld.com...ut-of-the-box/

Sig Sauer seems to be leading the way with actual out of the box Red Dot handguns featuring their Romeo 1 Red Dot's.

The P320 RX Full Size & Compact 9mm's
The P226 RX Full-Size in 9mm
The P226 Legion RX Full-Size in 9mm Luger / 357 SIG / 40 S&W
The P227 RX Full-Size in 45 Auto

Smith & Wesson’s Pro Series C.O.R.E. (Competition Optics Ready Equipment) line of M&P pistols includes the M&P40 and M&P40L—both chambered in .40 S&W and the latter with a longer slide—as well as the M&P9 and M&P9L chambered in 9mm.
All four models have slides milled to accept one of six mini reflex sights, including the Trijicon RMR, Leupold DeltaPoint, JPoint, Docter, C-More STS or Insight MRDS.
Like all the newly introduced guns from Sig Sauer and Robar, the C.O.R.E. pistols have iron sights with higher bases than normal so that the sights can be seen and used through the window of the reflex sight in an emergency.

I saw via ShotShow 2018 that Walther came out with their PPS M2 with the Shield RMSC Red Dot.

I see manufacturers testing the Red Dot waters if you will and depending on how the sales of their Red Dot mounted or Red Dot ready pistols, will tell them how much further to head into the waters!

For Sig it's easy, they have their Romeo 1 and Walther partnered with Shield and their RMSC Red Dot.
Some manufacturers can offer a full Red Dot package.

But for Glock & S&W etc. whose Red Dot do they put on their guns?
They don't know so they opt out to let US decide which Red Dot to use.
However that is not very advantageous to US pricing wise.
With Glock & S&W's CORE We have to pay retail for both the gun and Red Dot, rather than a discounted pricing from say Walther that has a MSRP of less than $700.00 for their PPS M2 and Shield RMSC.
Their partnering with Shield & Sig's Romeo 1 saves us money due to their package pricing.

The Red Dot phenom is building...It will get better with time.

Mackie244 / Bud

rpenmanparker · March 29, 2018, 09:00 AM

^^^^^

Yes, and besides the models called out as compatible with the S&W CORE line, it is likely that several others, more economical ones, will also work depending upon the dimensions of the slide cut out. I’m pretty sure the Burris Fastifire 3 would fit and perhaps the Sightmark Mini Pro Spec. The screw holes for both are right, but the base of the Sightmark may be a smidgen too long.

Road_Clam · March 29, 2018, 11:31 AM

when I bought my FNX45T the slide is cut for a dot optic and you get 2 different base plates. One base is for the RMR only, and the other works with the Burris FF2/3 or the Vortex Venom / Viper.

rpseraph · March 29, 2018, 04:42 PM

Red dots on pistols for anything but competition... it's a relatively new phenomenon. Give it 5 years and you'll see a lot more OEM options.

Rangerrich99 · March 30, 2018, 06:08 PM

I found these two videos interesting. I was wondering about possible issues with finding the dot on a pistol, which the first video addresses briefly. The second one has to do with a failure on the part of the red dot system itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WqTJKzo52Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bslw__XfnCo

At this point I'm leaning away from installing one of these type systems on one of my defensive handguns. YMMV.

Mackie244Bud · March 30, 2018, 10:14 PM

Rangerrich99,
This really is not about the OP's question of

Quote:

Why are red dot optics not standard from the OEM?

BUT...
I will say that even though your 2 videos are from 2012, the first one is correct in a few points.
1) You want the Red Dot actually milled into your slide (not Dove Tailed in and a mounting plate sitting on top of the slide)
2) You want to have your Red Dot with Co-Witnessing Iron Sights.
3) With anything new you will have to train with your Red Dots..
However if you have good technique of raising your gun and lining it up with the Iron Sights, your Red Dot will be there.
And as everyone in almost ALL Red Dot videos say, "It get's really good fairly fast.
You can train with the gun empty and in the comfort of your home.
You had to learn to use the Iron Sights..Now train with the Red Dot.

In the 2nd video
1)Talking about the Red Dot going out.
Most of today's Red Dots have completely different electronics, built much more robust to take the jarring slide movement shot after shot.
2) Improved battery life & placement.

Red Dots on Pistols The Good & The Bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNH262vjKK4

Red Dot Sights on Carry Guns a Bad Idea?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD95JL6Zhp8

Red Dots are not for everyone, myself I really like it on my Carry P320.
There are many good points in regard to using a Red Dot.
The worst negative is that it won't be on.
In 2500 rounds with my P320's Romeo 1 it has yet to not be there for me.
There was a period of time that my Romeo 1 was out at the beginning but it was because I buggered the plastic battery cover threads.
A call to Sig customer support and a new battery cover was sent to me "Next Day" for no charge!
A nice feature of Sig's Romeo 1 is that once the gun sit's motionless for 90 seconds, the Red Dot turns off to save battery life.
Pick up the P320 and the Red Dot is instant on.

Lastly youtube is loaded with videos concerning Red Dots so there is not a possibility of you being mis-informed or unaware.

Mackie244 / Bud

Rangerrich99 · March 30, 2018, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mackie244Bud

Rangerrich99,
This really is not about the OP's question of

BUT...
I will say that even though your 2 videos are from 2012, the first one is correct in a few points.
1) You want the Red Dot actually milled into your slide (not Dove Tailed in and a mounting plate sitting on top of the slide)
2) You want to have your Red Dot with Co-Witnessing Iron Sights.
3) With anything new you will have to train with your Red Dots..
However if you have good technique of raising your gun and lining it up with the Iron Sights, your Red Dot will be there.
And as everyone in almost ALL Red Dot videos say, "It get's really good fairly fast.
You can train with the gun empty and in the comfort of your home.
You had to learn to use the Iron Sights..Now train with the Red Dot.

In the 2nd video
1)Talking about the Red Dot going out.
Most of today's Red Dots have completely different electronics, built much more robust to take the jarring slide movement shot after shot.
2) Improved battery life & placement.

Red Dots on Pistols The Good & The Bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNH262vjKK4

Red Dot Sights on Carry Guns a Bad Idea?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD95JL6Zhp8

Red Dots are not for everyone, myself I really like it on my Carry P320.
There are many good points in regard to using a Red Dot.
The worst negative is that it won't be on.
In 2500 rounds with my P320 Romeo 1 it has yet to not be there for me.
A nice feature of Sig's Romeo 1 is that once the gun sit's motionless for 90 seconds, the Red Dot turns off to save battery life.
Pick up the P320 and the Red Dot is instant on.

Lastly youtube is loaded with videos concerning Red Dots so there is not a possibility of you being mis-informed or unaware.

Mackie244 / Bud

As you have had your red dot for a while let me ask a couple questions. Have you tried using it one-handed both strong hand and weak hand? Have you tried using it from non-typical positions, like 45 degrees off vertical, very close to your body/face, from your back, and so forth?

I ask because I noticed recently that with my red dot on my AR-15 using it from non-typical positions sometimes made finding the dot difficult. Fortunately I could still see my irons so I just shot the drill anyway, but I was wondering if the same kinds of issues were possible with a handgun red dot.

March 24, 2018, 04:26 PM	#101
turkeestalker Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2015 Location: Cottleville, Missouri Posts: 1,115	Don't take that wrong, I like pretty targets too. __________________ Vegetarian... primitive word for lousy hunter!

March 24, 2018, 07:58 PM	#107
turkeestalker Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2015 Location: Cottleville, Missouri Posts: 1,115	....and those are why I'll stick to irons. __________________ Vegetarian... primitive word for lousy hunter!

March 25, 2018, 04:27 PM	#109
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	I hope I never see a time when a gun such is this is offered only with a Red Dot sight: Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.

March 27, 2018, 05:57 AM	#113
Road_Clam Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2013 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,695	I'm typically a handgun irons type guy. About 8 months ago I decided to try a Vortex Venom dot on my FNX45T. I'm still on the fence if I truly like the dot better than irons. The advantage of a dot in my observations seems to be at 25-50 yds. I seem to have more consistent accuracy at longer handgun distances. The problem with a dot is the difficulty in obtaining very quick target acquisition. It takes me longer with a dot. Target acquisition with irons is very quick. Adding a dot to a new mfg firearm would dramatically increase the cost. In this day and age of everyone wanting "cheap" that type of added cost won't fly for boosting new gun sales. YMMV __________________ "To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"

March 27, 2018, 10:59 AM	#116
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	^ This! I have a great deal of difficulty sometimes finding the dot. I have absolutely no trouble with point and shoot instinct shooting at SD distance. Most often not even noticing the sights. __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

March 24, 2018, 04:27 PM	#102
Rangerrich99 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Location: Kinda near Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,254	In response to the original question, "Why are red dot optics not standard from the OEM?" I believe the answer is simply cost plus anticipated customer preferences. For example, say I buy a S&W M&P9 and S&W decides to offer all these guns with a red dot from company X for an extra $50 or whatever. Well, what if the customer for whatever reason doesn't want a red dot but something else? Or what if he likes red dots but doesn't like the red dot from company X? At that point, the extra $50 is a waste of money in the eyes of the customer. He/she may at that point decide to buy a gun from another company simply to avoid paying for something they don't want. Personally, I like red dots enough that I have them on a couple rifles and a shotgun, and for the purposes of those arms I find that they work very well. I have never considered a red dot on one of my defensive handguns, mostly because of their generally much taller aspect and how that limits my options as holsters are concerned. I have a couple lasers on two of my SD/HD handguns because they are down the side of the gun and so do not require special holsters. And I already have a considerable sum of money invested in the holsters I already have. I'm not terribly excited to research and purchase yet more holsters just to fit a red dot or two. Or three. I have thought about putting a reflex red dot on my S&W .22 Victory because I do like how much easier it is to aim and shoot over traditional irons, but it's not a defensive gun and I don't even have a holster for it. Anyway, just my two cents.

March 24, 2018, 04:55 PM	#105
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	Here is the SR1911 in the Mernickle holster with clearance for the Sightmark optic: Mernickle-SR1911.jpg

March 24, 2018, 07:30 PM	#106
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	And here is the LC9s with and without a simple one size fits all holster. Still pretty compact. LC9s.jpg LC9s holster.jpg

March 26, 2018, 03:48 AM	#111
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,325	Price and form factor. Adding an OEM rds to most pistols would be a 50% price hike at min. Can I sell a M&P 9 with a $200 red dot for $650? How many will complain that is a throwaway rds to be pitched and replaced with an rmr? The rds is adding quite a bit of size to your pistol. In CCW, this is detrimental imo. On an hd gun, probably a good idea.

March 26, 2018, 06:28 AM	#112
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	Everybody sure likes those RMRs it seems. Damn those things are pricey. I am so satisfied with Sightmark Mini Pro Specs for $100. Sometimes for reasons of mounting idiosyncrasies I need to double that outlay to $200 for a Burris Fastfire 3. They both work great. So far I see no need to go higher than that.

March 27, 2018, 04:21 PM	#117
turkeestalker Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2015 Location: Cottleville, Missouri Posts: 1,115	^^^ Which means you're likely doing things correctly. __________________ Vegetarian... primitive word for lousy hunter!

March 27, 2018, 04:49 PM	#118
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	Here is an interesting article fairly pointing out advantages and drawbacks to pistol mounted red dots: https://sofrep.com/97321/red-dot-sights-pistols-2/

March 29, 2018, 06:19 AM	#119
Mackie244Bud Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2017 Location: South Florida Posts: 252	Many manufactures are either offering Red Dot's on their handguns out of the box or like the Glock 19 MOS with the slide milled out and mounting plates. Article here: https://www.personaldefenseworld.com...ut-of-the-box/ Sig Sauer seems to be leading the way with actual out of the box Red Dot handguns featuring their Romeo 1 Red Dot's. The P320 RX Full Size & Compact 9mm's The P226 RX Full-Size in 9mm The P226 Legion RX Full-Size in 9mm Luger / 357 SIG / 40 S&W The P227 RX Full-Size in 45 Auto Smith & Wesson’s Pro Series C.O.R.E. (Competition Optics Ready Equipment) line of M&P pistols includes the M&P40 and M&P40L—both chambered in .40 S&W and the latter with a longer slide—as well as the M&P9 and M&P9L chambered in 9mm. All four models have slides milled to accept one of six mini reflex sights, including the Trijicon RMR, Leupold DeltaPoint, JPoint, Docter, C-More STS or Insight MRDS. Like all the newly introduced guns from Sig Sauer and Robar, the C.O.R.E. pistols have iron sights with higher bases than normal so that the sights can be seen and used through the window of the reflex sight in an emergency. I saw via ShotShow 2018 that Walther came out with their PPS M2 with the Shield RMSC Red Dot. I see manufacturers testing the Red Dot waters if you will and depending on how the sales of their Red Dot mounted or Red Dot ready pistols, will tell them how much further to head into the waters! For Sig it's easy, they have their Romeo 1 and Walther partnered with Shield and their RMSC Red Dot. Some manufacturers can offer a full Red Dot package. But for Glock & S&W etc. whose Red Dot do they put on their guns? They don't know so they opt out to let US decide which Red Dot to use. However that is not very advantageous to US pricing wise. With Glock & S&W's CORE We have to pay retail for both the gun and Red Dot, rather than a discounted pricing from say Walther that has a MSRP of less than $700.00 for their PPS M2 and Shield RMSC. Their partnering with Shield & Sig's Romeo 1 saves us money due to their package pricing. The Red Dot phenom is building...It will get better with time. Mackie244 / Bud Last edited by Mackie244Bud; March 29, 2018 at 06:32 AM.

March 29, 2018, 09:00 AM	#120
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	^^^^^ Yes, and besides the models called out as compatible with the S&W CORE line, it is likely that several others, more economical ones, will also work depending upon the dimensions of the slide cut out. I’m pretty sure the Burris Fastifire 3 would fit and perhaps the Sightmark Mini Pro Spec. The screw holes for both are right, but the base of the Sightmark may be a smidgen too long.

March 29, 2018, 11:31 AM	#121
Road_Clam Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2013 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,695	when I bought my FNX45T the slide is cut for a dot optic and you get 2 different base plates. One base is for the RMR only, and the other works with the Burris FF2/3 or the Vortex Venom / Viper. __________________ "To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"

March 29, 2018, 04:42 PM	#122
rpseraph Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2015 Location: MinneSNOWta Posts: 454	Red dots on pistols for anything but competition... it's a relatively new phenomenon. Give it 5 years and you'll see a lot more OEM options.

March 30, 2018, 06:08 PM	#123
Rangerrich99 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Location: Kinda near Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,254	I found these two videos interesting. I was wondering about possible issues with finding the dot on a pistol, which the first video addresses briefly. The second one has to do with a failure on the part of the red dot system itself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WqTJKzo52Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bslw__XfnCo At this point I'm leaning away from installing one of these type systems on one of my defensive handguns. YMMV.