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Old April 29, 2018, 10:47 AM   #26
Spats McGee
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One of the things I learned from H&HHunter is that a great deal of anti-poaching efforts is (apparently) funded by big game hunters.
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Old April 29, 2018, 12:35 PM   #27
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Just to let you know the West African Black Rhino is extinct.
It looks like nobody is being successful in protecting threatened and endangered animals in Africa. So congratulating hunters is like congratulating someone using a bucket to bail out the Titanic.
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Old April 29, 2018, 01:45 PM   #28
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If I ever decided to go, it would prolly turn into a photo shoot. I have the guns for the purpose, but no desire for shootin' dangerous game or the big 5, other than maybe a Cape buffalo. Most times the game is not dangerous until they feel threatened. Of course there is the rogue that is just mean from the start. People are like that too.

I have almost the same investment in cameras as I do firearms.
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Old April 29, 2018, 02:52 PM   #29
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One of the things I learned from H&HHunter is that a great deal of anti-poaching efforts is (apparently) funded by big game hunters.
Like it or hate it, species will live or die based on their value, and what that value is/how it is realized.

If their value is extremely expensive parts which are sold on the black market, it's going to be hard for the species to survive unless there is a LOT of money and effort invested in saving them.

If their value is in legal and carefully controlled hunting which brings in sufficient funds to provide for the various expenses related to keeping the species healthy then they have a chance for survival.

In species where there are competing interests, it's a contest between how much money each side can raise. The people who argue against the latter, whether they understand the issue or not, are actually providing support for the former.
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Old May 1, 2018, 02:58 AM   #30
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To me the problem with going on safari is you can't bring any of the meat home. Now it's a moot point for me because I don't have the bux to go but if I did and got one, I'd want a freezer full of meat to feed my family and friends. I wonder how elephant jerky tastes.

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Old May 1, 2018, 03:31 AM   #31
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no bad, when cooked right.
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Old May 1, 2018, 06:04 PM   #32
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Do I care. Nope.
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Old May 3, 2018, 08:39 AM   #33
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I don't see the hunting of game in Africa as any different than hunting here in the states. It just something that, in many cases, needs to be done. With the ever encroachment of human habitation on once wild habitat, the control of large predators for the safety of humans and their domestic livestock, and the control of prey animals once large predators are reduced, it's a necessary thing. Period. If one can add positive economic impact to the local economy on top of it, what, other than unethical ways of doing it, is wrong? While it ain't always pretty, neither are many things in life and in death.
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Old May 3, 2018, 11:20 AM   #34
johnwilliamson062
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I fully support trophy hunting, I've done it within Europe
Quote:
elephants needs to be hunted in many cases and it should be totally legal
Most animals need to be hunted because humans have reduced available habitat and predators. One issue is that when humans select for trophies we do not select what "nature" would select. For instance, I read a story some years ago about a cluster of antler-less white tails. The author went on to predict the spread of this defect as the bucks were generally ignored by hunters. It was years ago and I haven't heard more about the issue, but one can easily see what problems can develop when a population faces a hard selection for trophy feature.
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Old May 3, 2018, 07:22 PM   #35
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By the time an animal is truly a trophy, his genes have been past along many times.
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Old May 4, 2018, 05:59 PM   #36
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Does NO ONE teach the lesson of the Kaibab Deer anymore???

Simply put, if you don't allow, or replace the natural predation cycle, doesn't matter if its deer, elephants or rabbits, or sheep or cows, they will be fruitful and multiply, and keep on doing so until they have the numbers to eat all the food faster than it is produced. At that point, mass starvation sets in, most will die from starvation, and the few survivors will be weak and sickly, possibly for generations before the land can restore itself (assuming it can).

the only "selection" nature makes is a pass/fail criteria. The animal survives long enough to reproduce. That's it. Nature doesn't "select" the small and the weak, the small and the weak simply fail the survival test more often.

And, there is also the starvation situation, where the bigger "trophy" animal might survive being bigger, taking more of the available food. On the other hand, it might not, being bigger, needing more food to survive, the trophy animal might starve to death on an amount of food a smaller, weaker specimen might find enough to sustain life.


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I have almost the same investment in cameras as I do firearms.
That's wonderful. Now, are you willing to pay $5000 to an African government for a license to shoot a picture of an Elephant??

Most people aren't. Photo safari's are popular, and a good thing, but they do not, and cannot bring in the kind of money brought into the country by hunting (with guns, and killing trophy animals).

And that money pays for the protection efforts. The fact that they fail in the face of poachers who will use snares and a clip of AK rounds, wait a couple days for the animal to die, then hack off the parts they want.

I understand that its pretty much "open season" on poachers in parts of Africa, as in shoot on sight open season and that there is essentially a small scale war going on between poachers and game protection forces. And has been for quite some time...

people, even the most caring and wealthy simply won't pay enough for pictures of animals to support their protection to the level needed. Neither does trophy hunting, alone, but it goes much further than photos, and properly managed game is a renewable resource.
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Old May 4, 2018, 07:32 PM   #37
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That's wonderful. Now, are you willing to pay $5000 to an African government for a license to shoot a picture of an Elephant??
That's a good question and the answer is obviously no.

By the way, $5000 is very much on the low end of the scale for an elephant trophy fee. Just the cost of the trophy fee could be over $20,000 and that's on top of the cost of the hunt which could also be over $20,000.

That means the total cost of a trophy elephant hunt can approach $50,000. This makes it clear why areas that allow trophy elephant hunting have the money and incentive to preserve habitat and prevent poaching while the areas that do not are largely ineffective at either task.

The people who rail against trophy hunting and work to eliminate it may mean well, but they're actually fighting against the very thing that keeps the hunted species healthy and protected.

In addition, the animals killed are primarily from "demographics" that the game department has determined are overpopulated, or are older males that are have already passed on their genes and are getting close to the end of their lifespan. Elephants in the wild don't die of old age, they starve to death when their last set of teeth wears down to the point that they are no longer useful.
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Old May 4, 2018, 08:23 PM   #38
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To me the problem with going on safari is you can't bring any of the meat home. Now it's a moot point for me because I don't have the bux to go but if I did and got one, I'd want a freezer full of meat to feed my family and friends. I wonder how elephant jerky tastes.
Yes you can. And yes you do [have the 'bux'].

It's called Texas.
Nearly any game animal on Earth can be hunted on private ranches in the U.S. - primarily in Louisiana and Texas. ...And you can take the meat with you.

Quote:
By the way, $5000 is very much on the low end of the scale for an elephant trophy fee. Just the cost of the trophy fee could be over $20,000 and that's on top of the cost of the hunt which could also be over $20,000.

That means the total cost of a trophy elephant hunt can approach $50,000. This makes it clear why areas that allow trophy elephant hunting have the money and incentive to preserve habitat and prevent poaching while the areas that do not are largely ineffective at either task.
Indeed.
My father's cancelled cull 'hunt' - where the most he could have hoped for were plaster casts of small, unimpressive tusks - was going to cost him $4,000 to be a shooter, plus the 'trophy' fee for any kill ($5k each, I believe); plus the daily PH fees, transportation, lodging, etc. Altogether, he would have been into the trip for over $20k, just to shoot one elephant that the game managers wanted dead.
A bloody cull hunt, and it's $20k+.

And then there were the additional fees for his wife to come along and watch...


**I understand that all elephant hunts could be argued to be 'cull' hunts, and I wouldn't disagree with most of the arguments that I've seen before. In this case, the animals were of poor quality and had no "trophy" value.
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Old May 4, 2018, 09:28 PM   #39
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I understand that all elephant hunts could be argued to be 'cull' hunts, and I wouldn't disagree with most of the arguments that I've seen before. In this case, the animals were of poor quality and had no "trophy" value.
I think you hit on the crux of the matter. A cull hunt is focused on an animal that game rangers would otherwise have to kill. By definition, these animals are typically the type that a trophy hunter would have no interest in.

Someone who wants the experience of hunting an elephant but doesn't care about the size of the tusks on the dead critter would be interested in a cull hunt. The cost is still substantial but is a fraction of what a true trophy elephant hunt would cost.

A trophy hunt is focused on an animal that a trophy hunter would find interesting because of size, tusk size, or both.

In both cases, the benefit is tremendous. In cull hunting, the hunter pays handsomely for the privilege of doing something that the government/game department would otherwise have to pay someone to do. It not only provides financial benefit, but it also eliminates an expense. If administered properly, cull hunts not only improve the overall health of the population by eliminating overpopulation and population imbalances, they can be used to try to weed out undesirable genetic properties (tusklessness, for example) in the herd.

In trophy hunting, the hunter pays truly exorbitant amounts to kill an elephant that is close to its end of life rather than letting it die of starvation when its last set of teeth wear down.
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Old May 4, 2018, 10:01 PM   #40
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What does elephant taste like?

Do they go good with ranch?

These are the things I think about when Im stting home alone and the power goes out. I fully 100% support trophy hunting. Seems like a ton of fun but out of my personal budget.
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Old May 4, 2018, 10:22 PM   #41
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Oddly enough, while I am not especially interested in hunting elephant, I am curious about how they (and other African game animals) taste.

IMO, pretty much everything goes well with ranch.
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Old May 4, 2018, 11:17 PM   #42
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I certainly did not intend to get anyone's panties in a wad, but fact is, I am not interested in killing an elephant.
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Old May 16, 2018, 02:48 PM   #43
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I'd pay unreasonable money for an elephant steak. That is probably within my current means. A trip to Africa for a few weeks, let alone trophy fees, not so much.

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Old May 16, 2018, 03:51 PM   #44
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I have a friend who sets up premier safaris. His guided elephant hunts can run right at $100K, and he has a list of repeat clients. He books them all at the SCI Conventions. African hunting can be less expensive than some of the guided hunts here in the US, or as expensive as a new home. Which countries, what and how many animals will all dictate the cost.
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Old May 16, 2018, 07:18 PM   #45
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Cull hunts are usually of cows, to avoid over-population of a habitat area. Bulls are loners; cows aggregate into fair-sized groups.

On occasion, a group of cows can be likened to four-ton quadrupeds with PMS.
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Old May 21, 2018, 10:42 AM   #46
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I have wanted to hunt Africa since I discovered Capstick, and later Ruark. I'll never do it now, too old, and more importantly too broke, but it still interests me.
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