survival air rifle wanted: help me decide?

[James R. Burke]

Thats why I like the side cock or under lever. That barrel does not move at all. I think thats good for a few reasons. I had the RWS and sold it. Big mistake on my part. It was extremly accurate, but I still would like something bigger for a survival rifle.

[OhReally?]

not sure about all break barrels but my Feinwerkbau 124 has never had a problem.
It has always had aspirin busting accuracy for 27 years so far.
Although it probably is the best break barrel sporter ever made though.
Side levers might inherently be easier to make really accurate design wise, makes sense.

[darkgael]

I'm not pushing PCPs - just like I don't buy into the liklihood of any SHTF scenario happening.
But...I like to be accurate. It doesn't take an hour to pump up a PCP rifle reservoir from 0 to 3000 psi. It does take about 30 min. I suppose that if you were to do it all in one go, it'd be a real pain. When I had to do it - you only have to do it once - it took about 30 minutes. I set the thing up and did it periodically through the course of a day, maybe five minutes at a time.
As far as subsequent pump ups are concerned - yes, I am limited to about 10 shots before I need to pump up again. Understand though, that 10 shots uses only half the air pressure. Pumping it from 1500psi to 3K psi takes me about ten minutes.
The pay off, though, is power. If you take a heavy .22 pellet, maybe 30 grains, and you drive it very fast, say that you could get it to 1000 fps, you'd get an energy at the muzzle of 66 ft.lbs and a bullet with very little momentum. A run of the mill PCP in .45 will deliver just under 160 ft.lbs at the muzzle with a bullet that has a great deal of momentum and is going to carry that energy downrange effectively.
At this point, I use a scuba tank....because it is convenient. I have a big one for use at home and a smaller one for a couple of fill ups at the range, if I go to the range. if I had to, I'd use the pump again. if I'm hunting, ten shots should be more than enough.
Pete

[OhReally?]

I'm not pushing PCPs - just like I don't buy into the liklihood of any SHTF scenario happening.
But...I like to be accurate. It doesn't take an hour to pump up a PCP rifle reservoir from 0 to 3000 psi. It does take about 30 min. I suppose that if you were to do it all in one go, it'd be a real pain. When I had to do it - you only have to do it once - it took about 30 minutes. I set the thing up and did it periodically through the course of a day, maybe five minutes at a time.
As far as subsequent pump ups are concerned - yes, I am limited to about 10 shots before I need to pump up again. Understand though, that 10 shots uses only half the air pressure. Pumping it from 1500psi to 3K psi takes me about ten minutes.
The pay off, though, is power. If you take a heavy .22 pellet, maybe 30 grains, and you drive it very fast, say that you could get it to 1000 fps, you'd get an energy at the muzzle of 66 ft.lbs and a bullet with very little momentum. A run of the mill PCP in .45 will deliver just under 160 ft.lbs at the muzzle with a bullet that has a great deal of momentum and is going to carry that energy downrange effectively.
At this point, I use a scuba tank....because it is convenient. I have a big one for use at home and a smaller one for a couple of fill ups at the range, if I go to the range. if I had to, I'd use the pump again. if I'm hunting, ten shots should be more than enough.

Just out of curiosity since even though I have shot airguns all my life I have never owned a PcP so not really familiar with all the ends & outs of them.

What kind of PcP do you own? What cal?
How large is the air reservoir and what is a maximum fill? (3000psi etc)
I know the Airforce Condor tank is 490cc and 3000psi

The big bore air rifles in 9mm, .45 and 50cal some have 2 air reservoirs probably 500cc each but they use tons more air than a .22 or .25cal talon for each shot, so 7-10 shots is maximum. Seems like those would take forever to charge with a hand pump so I am sure those are high pressure scuba type tank fill only.

Anyway another thing I noticed on the Condor is the option to use 20oz C02 tanks like you can buy from paintball suppliers for about $14 and cost about $4 to refill.

In .22cal you get well over 1000 shots averaging 735fps in 80degree weather.
If you were shooting in warm weather with little to no wind this would work just fine for hunting out to about 50 yards.
Also be perfect just for plinking around the house, target practice etc. you could shoot all weekend long burn through 2 tins of pellets before needing to recharge.

Then if the weather wasn't warm in the winter or its windy, larger game, longer distances, or you just want the much higher power for what ever reason you could just unscrew the C02 tank and screw in the regular high pressure tank.
Also if you spend about $200 to have these rifles tuned at "TalonTunes" you get a quieter gun that shoots about an extra 80fps so even running C02 you would be averaging about 800fps in .22 and up to 1320+fps on air.

Here is an article on big bore air gun hunting.

http://www.airgundepot.com/big-bore-article.html


I found an article here on hand pumps.

http://gunmart.net/accessories_review/hills_v_fx_pumps/

The Hills pump looks really good, looks like about 160 pumps total to pump up a air tank from about 1500psi which is actually quite a bit below what you would ever let it go down to anyway up to 3000psi.
That tells me that a Condor tank after taking about 40 shots I could top off to 3000psi with about 70-80 pumps max. I cant imagine it taking more than about 3-5 mins to slowly top it off if that is the case, that is taking 3-4 seconds per pump which seems like taking my time, but I have never used a hand pump so this is just guessing.

That wouldn't be bad at all and couple that with an extra air tank plus a C02 adapter to use the 20oz C02 tanks and you basically have enough air for 80 full power shots with the two regular tanks and well over 1000 low power (800fps in .22) with the C02.

Seems like that would be enough for several weeks of just hunting and take less than 10 minutes of pumping.

Here is information dealing with the C02 for the Condor.

http://www.airforceairguns.com/webarticles.html


I think I am going to start looking for one of these used in .25cal, doesn't even matter what condition because Iam just going to take it to TalonTunes anyway and have them completely rebuild it and fine tune it.
The .25cal version can shoot a 42gr pellet up to 990+fps on first shot then 10th shot is still 955fps, that is averaging over 88FPE for 10 shots even out to 45 shots it is still around 860fps.
Looks like the perfect airgun system.

Never thought I would say that about a PcP but these look rather nice fully set up.

[darkgael]

What kind of PcP do you own? What cal?

I thought that I had covered this in my earlier posts.
In any case, this is the gun. It's a stock photo. Mine has a red dot sight on it and I do not use a bipod.
It is a .45 cal air gun despite its name: The Big Bore .44 909 Light Hunter by Sam Yang


It shoots these (200 gr. LRN) which I cast in pure lead and swage up to .458 and give a cup base:


The reservoirs are pressurized to 3000 psi. Yes, it can be done with a hand pump; I did it many times before buying a scuba tank.
I do not know the reservoir size.
Pete

PS: I have looked at the Talon. I like it.

you would be averaging about 800fps in .22 and up to 1320+fps on air.

There are lots of different .22 pellets - how heavy a pellet is used to produce those velocities? 13 grains? 14? 15? 18? 21? 28?
Companies generally use the lightest pellets in order to achieve a high "ad worthy" statistic.
P

[OhReally?]

the light weight pellets in 13gr run over 1390fps.

the medium weight pellets are the ones that run 1320, those are around 16gr.

The heaviest weight .22 that I know of is a Eun Jin that is 28 gr. I am not exactly sure what those run but I do know that .25cal pellets that are 42gr run 990+fps because I have seen several chronograph charts on those.

and that is on "Tuned" rifles not stock.

[Casimer]

Something to consider w/ spring pistons is that certain of them can be modified to shoot 22lr. The conversion is hackish, but for survival purposes could prove useful.

Of the conventional choices, I'd go with a simple multi-pump like the Benjamin Sheridan. There's a valve, piston, and pump lever upgrade available from a company named Mac 1 that enables these to handle higher pressures - http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/...id-streak.html

[OhReally?]

I am actually familiar with the Mac1 Sheridan's, I used to live about 45min drive from Mac1.
I went there a few times to check a couple of rifles on his chronograph and have him check over an old Weihrauch EL54 Barakuda that I used to own.
Using Ether that would push Barakuda 21gr pellets over 1200fps.
That was back in the early 80's

I tried one of his tuned Sheridan's and they were nice for a pump up gun but only a wee bit better than just stock.
Plus the effort to pump that up over 8 pumps was pretty harsh and anything over 3 pumps the gun was loud.

Best thing about those Sheridans is they were reliable as far as pump up guns go they were made really well and they were quite accurate.
Good for plinking if you just pump it up 3-4 times.

[RimfireChris]

FWIW, I used to pull security at several industrial sites. Every month or so, they had professionals, from the FDA I think, come in to keep the pigeon population knocked back. Except for one, they all used the Talons to a man. One was nice enough to let me take a look at his, the thing screams quality. If I ever get a pcp, that'd be the one. I don't remember what the one guy used, but it was a .25 cal pcp.

[OhReally?]

Yeah the Talons are really popular with the pest exterminators especially the Talon SS because it is very quiet you can turn the power up and down to whatever you need, they are short barrels, very light little carbine.

All of the Airforce air guns a very well made and come with a lifetime warranty, can change barrels, tanks everything very easily and quickly.

Myself I am thinking about the Condor because of the power and getting it in .25cal.
A.25cal airgun that shoots even super heavy 42gr pellets to right at 1000fps is pretty damn good.

Add on the frame extender/sound suppressor and you have a very quiet, quality airgun that is very good for small game out to 100 yards.

[RimfireChris]

You seem to know a lot about springers, what's the life expectancy of one? When I was talking to one of the pest control guys he said they all used to use Beemans but they were toast after a year. How many rounds would that take? He didn't say if that meant the barrels were shot out or if the springs and other internals were done in.

[johnwilliamson062]

Well number one is quiet neighborhood type shooting/hunting that would not be possible with a standard .22.

Some airguns are actually very loud.

I bought a GAMO for this very purpose. I was sorely disappointed in its performance. You get nowhere close to the velocity advertised and when you are shooting such light pellets you really don't have much energy when all is said and done.

[OhReally?]

"

You seem to know a lot about springers, what's the life expectancy of one? When I was talking to one of the pest control guys he said they all used to use Beemans but they were toast after a year. How many rounds would that take? He didn't say if that meant the barrels were shot out or if the springs and other internals were done in."

Wow, never heard such a thing.
Most springers last many many years before needing to put in another spring & piston and seals.
I can really only speak for the springers that I have personally owned.

One was a Weihrauch EL54 Barakuda that was made in probably the late 50's early 60's and I owned it from 82 (bought it from Robert Beemans personal collection for $600) until I sold it in I think it was 2002.
Mr. Beeman I believe had changed the spring and the seals in it sometime in the 70s (that was because in the 50's-60's the seals were made of leather) and when I sold it in 2002 it had the same springs and seals in it and shot fine. That gun was like 40+ years old when I sold it for $1250.00 and was still like brand new.
Keep in mind this was a springer that used Ether to detonate (diesel) which doubled the power.

My other springer I still own which is a Feinwerkbau 124D I recently changed the spring & piston and seals with a Macarri set which are slightly better than original. (little smoother and about 50fps faster).
The gun still shot fine but after 27 years I figured it was about time to tune it up and today it shoots better than it ever has. Its better than brand new and its 28 years old.

Granted both of these are 2 of the best springers ever made but still I cant believe that any of the Beeman R1's etc only last a year or two that sounds sorta like BS to me.
(Unless these guys just never take care of them at all, never oil them just shoot the hell out of them every single day ride em hard and put em away wet).

Also owned a Beeman P1 air pistol that was a spring piston, shot over 600fps for a pistol. Owned that for over 15 years without a single problem with same springs and piston seals.

I am sure he meant springs and piston seals because that is literally the ONLY thing that can wear out on spring piston air guns. But you should be able to shoot these guns every single day for years and years because I think most springs & seals are supposed to last like 15,000 shots or more, mine have.
The barrels will last more than a lifetime can be handed down for generations.

[OhReally?]

"Some airguns are actually very loud.

I bought a GAMO for this very purpose. I was sorely disappointed in its performance. You get nowhere close to the velocity advertised and when you are shooting such light pellets you really don't have much energy when all is said and done.

All true, although most of the "loud airguns" are the PcP and Pump up type. I cant say that I have heard a spring piston airgun that was what I call "loud" unless it is shooting a pellet over 1125fps.
My FWB 124 which only shoots around 800fps with a medium weight pellet in .177 is very quiet.
I also have a Webley Pro-System silencer on it though.
In the area that says "silencer body" you roll up plastic screen like from a screen door that fits exactly in that area and it works fantastic for silencing airgun report.



With this silencer which I doubt you can probably get anymore if you are more than 30 yards away all you hear is just the pellet whiz by.

From what I understand the Airforce Talon SS and Condor with a sound suppressor is about as quiet as my FWB 124.
I personally have not heard one so can not honestly make that claim, but the videos I see on youtube suggest they are correct.

[johnwilliamson062]

I cant say that I have heard a spring piston airgun that was what I call "loud" unless it is shooting a pellet over 1125fps.

My GAMO is as loud at my head as a 22. The 22 sends sound down the barrel and the spring piston is right by my ear though.

[kozak6]

Be very careful with airgun silencers.

The BATFE has a rather dim view of them.

http://www.beemans.net/silencers_on_airguns.htm

[OhReally?]

"My GAMO is as loud at my head as a 22. The 22 sends sound down the barrel and the spring piston is right by my ear though."

But 30 yards away in any direction any 22lr is much louder than any spring piston.

"Be very careful with airgun silencers.

The BATFE has a rather dim view of them."

Yeah I have been reading that for years. I bought mine from Robert Beeman the same guy that wrote the article.
I have just made up my mind that I am not going to worry about it, the plain simple fact is that a freaking POTATO that you can buy in any super market is a more effective fire arm silencer than ANY airgun silencer would ever be.
I have had it for 28 years, and will just take my chances that some fascist nut bag doesn't try to go all Elliot Ness on me.

[Skans]

My understanding on airgun silencers is that they are ok if they are an integral, non-removable part of the gun. Otherwise, they are no-no's. I figure that since Gamo offers a gun with such an integral silencer, that others that are more effective/elaborate would be ok too, so long as it can't be removed.

[OhReally?]

Every silencer can be removed with a diamond bladed cutter, at least this is what the BATFE "could" theoretically argue.

The whole argument is of course ridiculous because of someone wanted to put a silencer on a firearm they certainly are not going to waste several hundred dollars buying a airgun then insane amounts of modifications to try to modify it to work on a firearm when they could just make one from scratch if they are that handy.
Going by the BATFE regulations literally every person on the planet has "something" in their possession that could possibly be used to silence ONE round from a firearm.

Those few situations where some guy gets thrown in jail because of a airgun silencer that really wont work on a firearm is a classic example of government bureaucracy run amuck and I hope that it is a very rare occurrence.

I know the Airforce airguns, Talon/Condor have silencers that work well on "airguns" and would never come close to working on any firearm of any kind.

To me its the sole reason to even own an airgun is the quietness of them so you can plink, target shoot, and hunt in areas where doing so with a firearm is 100% taboo.

Airguns have exactly the power needed to hunt out to 100yards effectively but not the carrying distance, momentum and extreme overkill power (for small game) that virtually all firearms have.
If you miss with an air rifle you aren't going to kill your neighbor 300 yards away short of a magic bullet scenario.

[jmorris]

But 30 yards away in any direction any 22lr is much louder than any spring piston.

I have some suppressed .22’s that make more noise when you dry fire them than they do when you shoot live ammunition as the steel on steel ding makes more noise than when the brass case absorbs the blow. If you stay under super sonic they can make less noise than air rifles. Even some of my suppressed center fire rifles make less noise than some of the air rifles I own.

Every silencer can be removed with a diamond bladed cutter, at least this is what the BATFE "could" theoretically argue.

The NFA branch of the BATFE accepts welding or a blind pin as “permanent”. Yes anything can be taken apart and put back together but they do have standards, even if they move around from time to time.

[Skans]

The whole argument is of course ridiculous ....

The entire National Firearms Act and Gun Control Act are ridiculous - that's a given! BATFE has so many arbitrary and insconsistant rulings that it's a complete joke. A number of them could probably be successfuly contested....if the right circumstances present and if you had enough money.

The thing is that from what I can tell, BATFE likes to make lots of rulings telling folks that various devices are illegal (eg. the Atkins Accelerator), but don't actively pursue cases against individuals violating one of there "sketchy" rulings.

When the USAS-12 (semi-auto, long-barreled, 12-gauge shotgun) was declared a DD, requiring it to be registered, they let folks register them up to about 10 years after that idiotic ruling. To date, I haven't heard of one case brought against anyone who failed to register their USAS, Streetsweeper, etc. It's a little hard to make a case someone who owns an unregistered streetsweeper that isn't even a semi-automatic - really just a spring-assisted revolver - should do time in prison when a Saiga-12 with 20 round drum is perfectly legal. Lots of luck, BATFE - I'd love to see them take that case to the mat.

[JohnKSa]

I'll call a BIG BS on this..............100 yards? Please, those pellets won't even make 50 arced like a 45-70

Even at only 600fps muzzle velocity a .177cal pellet will definitely shoot well over 100 yards. Remaining energy is low and the arc becomes very pronounced over 40 yards, but the idea that it won't even make 50 yards is absolutely incorrect. With some of the more powerful airguns and in larger calibers, taking small game out to 100 yards should certainly be possible even with conventional pellets.

I haven't run the numbers to try to figure maximum possible range but with conventional airguns & pellets the downrange safety zone is supposed to be similar to that of a shotgun using birdshot--about 400 yards.

Every silencer can be removed with a diamond bladed cutter, at least this is what the BATFE "could" theoretically argue.

Trying to use logic in this area will get you some time in federal prison.

Going by the BATFE regulations literally...

Going by the BATF regulations literally is what the BATF employees do for a living.

The bottom line is that if you want a detachable silencer then go through the NFA process to buy one (or make one) legally. REGARDLESS of whether you intend to use it on an airgun or firearm. The BATF doesn't care what it's going to be used for or even if it's going to be used at all. If it meets their (rather broad) definition of a silencer then it's a silencer even if it's never used and the owner better have the proper paperwork or it's a federal crime.

If you don't want to purchase a silencer then your only other option for a silenced airgun is to purchase one of the models with an integral silencer that the BATF considers non-removable by their standards.

[RimfireChris]

+1 also, make sure it's legal for where you live, as some states have laws that restrict what you can and can't own, even stricter than the fed laws. It'd be a shame to spend the money on the permiting process just to find out you can't own one in your state.

[Skans]

+1 also, make sure it's legal for where you live, as some states have laws that restrict what you can and can't own, even stricter than the fed laws. It'd be a shame to spend the money on the permiting process just to find out you can't own one in your state.

Check state laws 1st. Call your CLEO 2nd (or contact a firearms/trust attorney). Then buy the registered item and start the BATFE transfer process.

[OhReally?]

I am not trying to argue the "logic" in it because there really isn't any. The BATF can basically do whatever it feels like doing when it comes down to it.
That's the problem.

That old Webley "silencer" I have that I bought totally legally from Beeman back in 1982 wont really do a thing without lots of modifications to even slightly silence even a 22lr let alone anything bigger.
In fact it would be easier and much cheaper to just start with a plain tube that you could buy from virtually any hardware store.
So if such an airgun silencer would be misconstrued by BATF as a working silencer for a firearm then there is zero logic in that, but again that's the problem when basically you are at the mercy of people that can do virtually whatever they want and bend the rules to their liking.

Fortunately though I don't think there are all that many instances like the ones listed in that article above.