Question about Dies

[Cowboy_mo]

I am fairly new to reloading and didn't have much succes searching for this topic so if it is a repeat I apologize.

Is it possible to use a full length .308 Win resizing die to "neck only" size .30-06 Spfld cases?

Does anyone know anything about or have experience with Herters resizing dies?

Thanks for your assistance.

[mapsjanhere]

Trying to save the $15 for a Lee Die set ?
The neck of the 30-06 is double the length of the 308, so make sure your die is long enough to do a decent job in neck sizing a 30-06 (and btw, a dedicated neck sizing die is only $20).

[Cowboy_mo]

I have been looking for neck sizing dies (No the Lee collet die because I have read about too many problems with them) and when I find one for $20 or less will buy one but so far the search has been fruitless......... The new RCBS neck sizing only dies in 30-06 are $28 plus shipping from Midway and they are the cheapest new ones on the web.

But, thanks for the length of die insight.

[Brian Pfleuger]

What problems are you reading about with the Lee Collet dies? They work great.

[oneounceload]

If the $8 difference is gonna break the bank for you, perhaps you need to rethink shooting as a hobby..................
What is it with folks who are too cheap to get the right tool for the job?

[wncchester]

"(No the Lee collet die because I have read about too many problems with them)"

Since no one has supported that, I feel free to challenge what you've read without stepping on anyone's toes.

There is a moving part in the Lee collet die, it's not a simple "push the case in, pull the case out" thing like "normal" neck dies are and that seems to bewilder some less than mechanically inclined people. The collets actually work quite well, it's probably the best neck die available - at any price - for factory rifles. The learning curve is short (or should be) and it's well worth pursuing.

It's dark and cold outside so I'm not going to the shop to see how well a .308 FL would work to neck size a .30-06 but it should do fine if you adjust it properly. Try it, if it doesn't work you lose a case. ??

(Ref. "Lifetime Warrantees": After some 45 years of reloading, I have some 6 presses and did have a couple of others, have some 3 dozen die sets now and did have a dozen more, own two beam scales and one digital (that I rarely use), multipules of other tools, bullet molds, sizers, trimmers, neck turners, etc., all of multipule brands and I find no particular advantage to any color of loading tools. I've never needed a part for any of them other than one broken RCBS shell holder retaining C spring and a few Lyman decapping pins that cost me $5 or so. Therefore, it seems how important it may be to pay high initial prices for tools with total warrantees depends a lot on how often we screw simple mechanical things up??)

[Cowboy_mo]

Check out 3/5 reviews posted here where Midway is advertising the dies you love...... http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=329661

Now if you guys love them ........ fine...... but I don't want to take a chance on them.

As to worrying about $8 ........ take up a new hobby.......... You sound like one of our current members of congress.........

Oh, Midway's website wasn't the only place where I found negative reviews about the collet dies.......

But I'm glad you guys have had such good luck with them...... personally I like lifetime warrantys on things like dies and I don't like taking chances even for a few bucks less............

[Brian Pfleuger]

Hm, well, if you want to believe 2 anonymous reviews rather than the experiences of people on this forum then more power to you... I guess. If you search this forum, rather than rely on those 2 reviews on MidWay, I think you'll find different opinions. Either way, doesn't matter to me. I won't load my rifle rounds any other way, but you do what makes you happy.

[grubbylabs]

For what its worth I look at the reviews as well and have a hard time spending money on something that has several bad reviews.

And sorry Peetzakilla but I don't know any of you so when I ask a question I take the answers with a grain of salt, granted I have been given some really good advise her, but I don't just blindly trust.

[44 AMP]

I suppose with careful adjustment it ought to be possible. But why not just have a little patience and save your pennies and get a set of .30-06 dies? You can neck size with them, and someday you might find the full length sizing capability to be useful. And then there is the whole bullet seating thing...

If you don't reload the .308, why not see if you can trade the .308 die for a .30-06 die?

You could probably make the neck sizing work, but in the long run, you'll be better off with dies for the specific caliber you are loading.

Talk to some reloaders, you might find one with a set of '06 dies they aren't using anymore.

I have one set of Herters dies. 6.5x55mm Swede. Obviously, quite old, but in good shape, and they work as well as any other dies I have used.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by grubbylabs

And sorry Peetzakilla but I don't know any of you so when I ask a question I take the answers with a grain of salt, granted I have been given some really good advise her, but I don't just blindly trust.

My point is not that any of us are so awesome. The point is, the "bad reviews" on MidWay amount to 2 reviews. It's not like there are 200 reviews and the rating is 3 stars. There are 5 reviews and 2 of the 5 are bad. On the other hand, there are literally DOZENS of threads discussing the Lee Collet dies here on TFL.

Which is more reliable? 2 anonymous reviews on MidWay or hundreds of comments made by people on TFL, many of which are still around and available to answer questions and provide real life experiences? At the very least, you have some idea about most of us here on TFL. You may not know the individual but when they have 100's (or thousands) of posts you certainly have a better idea if you can or can't trust them than you do a 2 line review from an unknown source on MidWay.

The old rule that 10X more people will provide bad experiences than good alway applies. Personally, I almost completely ignore negative reviews until they VASTLY outnumber positive comments. It's the nature of humanity. We are FAR more likely to complain than compliment.

Anyone who won't spend money on something that has "several bad reviews" had better not be looking for ANYTHING on the internet. I would be surprised if you could name a single product that I couldn't find negative comments about on the 'net.

[Mike Irwin]

"Hm, well, if you want to believe 2 anonymous reviews rather than the experiences of people on this forum then more power to you"

Is peetzakilla your Christian name, or is it the name you adopted so that you can remain relatively anonymous on the Internet?

[grubbylabs]

Well peetzakilla I did find something, My cabelas tent, it had an over whelming supply of positive reviews when I bought it, and yes when spendig 800 bucks the reviews were important.


The thing is, some of us can't afford to buy things on a gamble like that. And yes when two of the three reviews are bad then it does make it hard to purchase something on line. I usually wait till I can see it in person or talk to some credible people. For example the Lyman press has some fairly negative reviews on their, but I am likely to buy one since it does have a few more positive and I have a friend who is very objective about his judgment on items who says it is a good piece after several pieces.


And as far as post counts go, they mean nothing to me, I have encountered countless blow hards on forums who have tons of posts and I have yet to see them type anything intelligent and rarely nice. I don't mean that all people with high counts are blow hards, like I said I have gotten some good advise from several people including you, but I only trust so far when I can't see someone face to face or talk to them a the phone a few times.

[Mike Irwin]

OK, let's get back to the original question and get away from personalities.

That's a hint.

Regarding the original question, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do it it. The only issue you might run into is seating the bullet effectively using a .308 die.

If you have a set of .308 dies, give it a try. That's the only way you'll know for certain if it will work or not.

[snuffy]

Some people with ten thumbs should NOT be handloading.

The lee collet neck sizer die is just plain ingenious. Nothing like it exists in the reloading world. It's been proven to produce more concentric cases, therefore, more accurate ammunition.

It does have a learning curve. It can be damaged with a press that can generate massive force. Sometimes the mandrel has to be turned down a bit to give tighter bullet pull. OR Lee will supply a smaller mandrel for a nominal charge.

Some say it's a good idea to take it apart BEFORE using to get out chips left by machining the collet. And to give the collet a coating of light grease or good oil.

As for trying to neck size a 30-06 in a .308 die, I could try that and report my findings. As far as would the resulting sizing hold a bullet, I don't plan on shooting any -06 soon.

Since you're new to handloading, know this: You will eventually HAVE to full length size those -06 cases. The shoulder has to be set back after a couple neck sizeings in order to chamber. This will only work if you're using the shells in a bolt action rifle AND if the empty shells were originally fired in that bolt rifle.

Another thing, how do you plan to deprime?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Well, the positive reviews here and elsewhere overwhelm negative info on collet dies by a wide margin. But, like I said, it doesn't matter to me what the OP chooses. I'll give the best info I have and he, and everyone else, can take it or leave it.

[Edward Horton]

Your question peaked my curiosity so I went to my reloading bench and gave it a try.

So to answer your question "YES" you can use a .308 die to neck size a 30-06 case.

"BUT" depending on the type and manufacture of the .308 die the expander-decapping rod might not deprime the case.

2nd "BUT", also the further the expander-decapping rod is extended from the top of the die the more chance you have of case neck mis-alignment.

Below a cartridge with the bullet perfectly aligned with the bore.



Below a cartridge case with the neck of the case pulled off center by the expander-decapping rod due to misalignment.
(excessive bullet runout)



Now to the Lee Collet die, you will not find a better neck sizing die for the money that produces as accurate ammunition. The problem you read about are from people who do not read the dies setup instructions and then sets the collet die up like a standard resizing die. This will use excessive force on the collet and mandrel and jam the die and possibly cause damage to the Lee Collet die.

Watch and learn below about the Lee Collet die and the accuracy of the ammunition loaded by this very good die.
I have five Lee Collet dies and when set up properly you will reload very accurate ammunition with them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEas38vkKg

[Unclenick]

Using the .308 die has two limitations. One was mentioned earlier. Neck-sized cases grow tighter with each successive loading and firing cycle, and eventually need either to be full-length resized or to be run into a Redding Body Die or a Forster Bump die to set the shoulder back a little and/or narrow the case a little, so a .30-06-specific die of some kind will eventually be needed.

Ed beat me to the other limitation, which is that because the .308 case has a more gradual taper and a sharper shoulder than the .30-06, it leaves extra room for the neck expander to pull the neck off-axis with the rest of the .30-06 case as the case is withdrawn from the die. That increases runout in the cartridge because the bullet doesn't go in aligned straight with the rest of the case. That means that when the cartridge is chamber and fired, the bullet is at a slight angle entering the bore. That has been show to open groups as little as under 0.2 moa (tight benchrest chamber and extra tight bore) to as much as 2.0 moa (military barrel and chamber), depending on the chamber and bore dimensions.

That tendency to pull the neck off-axis is a problem to some extent with all neck sizing where an expander is needed. This includes your .308 die. The problem is that case neck wall thickness has a 0.004" tolerance in most chamberings. That adds up to 0.008" diameter tolerance because both sides of the neck are included in the diameter. The die has to be able to size the thinnest possible neck. Because it sizes from the outside with no internal limit, it has to make the neck 0.008" narrower than the thickest neck requires, or about 0.004" to 0.006" smaller than the typical neck is usually made. The expander then has to stretch it back out again on the inside to be 0.001" to 0.002" smaller than the bullet. That creates correct neck tension. This process also means the neck actually is sized twice.

Only the RCBS X-die for full length resizing, and the Lee Collet Die for neck sizing avoid the above problem. Both have mandrels that set the inside diameter of the case mouth correctly at sizing, and that also avoids the second sizing. It works the neck brass less so it needs annealing less frequently. I've misplaced the reference, but one British target shooting magazine compared all neck sizing dies about five years ago and found they all pulled necks off-axis by 0.002" or more except the Lee Collet die. It was always under 0.001". Same as is demonstrated in Ed's video link. So, you can see the reasons the die design has fans. It is just better in principle.

I read the Midway reviews, five in all in that link. Since each chambering or set has its own reviews, I also looked at some others. Many have only positive reviews. Here's the one for .308. It is four five star happy reviews, then one more where a fellow blew the aluminum cap off. Of the reviews for the .30-06 version, two were very positive. Of the three that were not five stars, including the one with the cap blown off, they either didn't read the instructions (free download online) or could have been instructed how to use the die correctly. This die does require some thinking and learning, but once you understand the limitations it works better than any other neck sizing die made at any price.

How to use it correctly:

First, understand how people can blow the cap off so you won't. The people who did this had cases with thick heads (that varies by brand). They needed to loosen the cap enough to let the case push the mandrel up high enough to let the collet close before the top of the mandrel jammed against that cap. They jammed it. The collet wasn't closing completely because of the jam, so they laid a muscle on the press handle and pushed the rod up hard into it and blew the threads off the soft aluminum. One guy wrote that his wouldn't work even though he lubricated the cases (not needed with this die). Clearly he was jamming the mandrel with his particular case and misunderstood what was happening and thought lubrication would fix it.

Other reviews on other dies describe having to put washers between that aluminum cap and the die to get it to work. That means the same thing was happening to them. The mandrel bottoming out on their cases. The washers let them tighten the cap at a higher position to remedy that. If you feel the need to tighten it, that's fine. I just lightly flatten the edges of the aluminum cap thread on one side with a light hammer tap and let the friction from the lightly boogered thread keep it from moving.

To get the cap position right, just turn the die in, per the instructions, and push a case in just far enough to deprime it. Then remove the cap and run the die all the way up, closing the collet. With it in that position, turn the cap back in. If it goes all the way, fine, you are done. If it runs into the top of the mandrel, back it out a half turn and leave it there until you change case lots.

To address other complaints, no, this die is not suitable for use in a progressive press. That's just the way it is. The guy who found it too hard to be consistent with it and switched to a Redding neck die forgot to shoot groups with brass sized in both and compare the results. That is the objective in the end, right? Best groups.

Lee's 25 lb handle force recommendation is a ballpark number. If you adjust the handle of your press out far enough, or if you don't turn the die into the press far enough so that the press compound leverage is high or near overcamming, you can put too much force on it with 25 lbs on the handle. You don't need to use super force to size the neck. Size, lower the ram far enough to turn the case 180° and squeeze it again. I get very consistent results that way.

Alternative die: the Classic Lee Loader is a neck sizer that will fit your case snuggly enough so you can usually keep on shooting without other sizing. A group shot using ammo loaded in one held top place in the Guinness Book of World Records for several years. The loading process with one is slow, but you can prime separately on your press or even seat bullets on your press, as you prefer. Unless you have a competition seater, the Lee Loader may seat your bullets straighter than your press does, though.

[wncchester]

Nick: "First, understand how people can blow the cap off so you won't. The people who did this had cases with thick heads (that varies by brand)."

I disagree. I mean, it's more accurate to say the thick heads were leaning on the press handle!

The Lee collet neck die alum caps are specifically made soft so dummies can't damage their press or the die body through exessive pressure foolishness. It works too! (Of course nothing is "fool proof" to a determined and sufficently capable fool; I've seen photos of Rock Chucker presses with the top strap broken!)

[grubbylabs]

[snuffy]

It works too! (Of course nothing is "fool proof" to a determined and sufficiently capable fool;

'Nuther way of saying it is; "inventing something fool proof, they just invent better fools"

It's entirely possible to blow the cap off by pushing harder on the handle trying to size a 7-08 neck tight enough so I couldn't seat a bullet deeper by pushing against the bench. The Bonanza co-ax has plenty of compound leverage to do it! Yes the alum cap is a safety valve. I ended up chucking the mandrel in a hole shooter, working about .0015 off of it, to make the necks internally smaller to grip the bullets better.