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March 8, 2013, 12:50 AM | #26 |
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....
I've never been in a gunfight. Hope I never am. But I have been in exactly one real shipboard emergency in the the service when I was a young Buck. An electrical fire in a machinery room.
You know what we did? We did everything exactly like we did in the umpteen hundred drills we had done for months before. Nobody "thought" about anything. It just happened, and everything worked out in just a few minutes. Could have been worse, but it wasn't. Stupid, repetative, boring training worked. I have first hand proof. Do I train enough? No. And I have all the excuses. But I know that training works. Last edited by mrbatchelor; March 8, 2013 at 12:56 AM. |
March 8, 2013, 01:57 AM | #27 |
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....
Thanks for the responses! Sorry to those who took offense and I see that there are a few. I now realize why it looks so dumb to me after reading someone's response...... its not that he looks behind him it's that move that he pulls the gun close to him and turtles his head so deep into his shoulders that throws me off.
Last edited by Jskd82; March 8, 2013 at 02:03 AM. |
March 8, 2013, 08:34 AM | #28 |
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....
Not sure about the turtling but bringing the gun in makes sense. If you're not on a target and not looking where your gun is pointing, best to keep it in tight where you can control it better. By control I mean physical possession not control under fire.
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March 8, 2013, 07:46 PM | #29 |
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I was taught something extremely similar; except the 180 degree thing.
Makes sense, will probably adopt it. |
March 9, 2013, 01:15 AM | #30 |
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Why do some people look behind them....
It's not really turtling the head, it's keeping the shoulders up. In a proper isosceles stance, your shoulders are up. When you bring the gun in, you want to keep your shoulders up just in case you need to bring your gun back out to a firing position. It saves one movement of your body
Having said that, a lot of people use extremely exaggerated stances, and that adds to the potential silliness of what they are doing. My favorite exaggerated stance is the hunch back Isosceles stance. Yes, your knees should be bent. Yes, you should be leaning slightly over. But there's no need to bend your knees at an extreme angle, stick your butt out, and lean over at an aggressive angle. The advantage to it is you're a smaller target, but it's way harder to move around like that. |
March 9, 2013, 07:38 AM | #31 |
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Ayoob and Pincus have also discussed at length the postures and involuntary movements one assumes when stressed/frightened. The "turtle" hunched look is the one a person assumes in those circumstances. Drop a trash can on the floor behind your Mom and see what she does first. .
The reasoning is to work from that posture because like it or not that's the one you will be in when the dance starts.
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March 10, 2013, 01:44 PM | #32 |
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I have noticed that a whole lot of people do this as part of the "dance moves" and do not even really notice anything, just going through the moves. Same with the flip flop chamber check thing that is all the rage. People are just going through the motions like its a dance move and are not really looking at anything.
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March 10, 2013, 02:17 PM | #33 |
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It pays to be aware of your surroundings. The more treacherous they are, the more you had better be aware of them.
That said, I have witnessed exactly what Fire Forged just mentioned- stand in one place, swivel head exactly the same each time and look ahead w/o seeing anything. Stationary dance moves. In a scrap, the only way I'm standing still is to fire a precise shot or two- or after I am behind cover. God bless the Sanitation Department- they provide both fixed (dumpsters) and moving (trash trucks) armor, essentially free of charge.
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March 10, 2013, 08:53 PM | #34 |
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One of the nice things about the revolver is that there is no need to look behind you. The recoil shield is a perfect rear view mirror!
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March 10, 2013, 10:31 PM | #35 | |
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March 11, 2013, 12:56 AM | #36 | |
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Just my thoughts on the matter. |
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March 11, 2013, 11:26 AM | #37 |
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Ever walk down a dark path at night and hear an odd noise? Even though the noise came from the right, you didnt need to be "trained" to look up, down, 360 around for danger. Its an instinctual response which is where the word "jumpy" came from. I think "fear response" can protect me better than trying to make myself perform certain moves that may or may not be needed at the time.
What used to be... bang-bang then move, has now become bang-bang, flip, turn, look, feel, look again, spin...then move. I will stick with the plain ole bang bang then move and always from a low ready. Thats just me.
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Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; March 11, 2013 at 11:33 AM. |
March 11, 2013, 01:20 PM | #38 |
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....
I agree with FireForged..... I think its non sense and people are just trying to look tacticool. That turtling posture is just over doing it and yeah you might flinch when you get spooked but you won't stay turtled up the entire time...... you won't know how your body will react until you are put into a stressful situation. If you think training will takeover then why not practice firing at targets behind you instead of just looking back.....
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March 11, 2013, 02:23 PM | #39 | ||
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It's a standard training exercise in every basic combat handgun course I've ever seen. It's a standard part of the IDPA Classifier (Stage 2 String 3). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_...#El_Presidente Quote:
Last edited by 45_auto; March 11, 2013 at 02:33 PM. |
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March 11, 2013, 03:17 PM | #40 | |
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....
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March 11, 2013, 03:32 PM | #41 |
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I can see the thinking behind looking around. But if i did that at the range i would be laughed of the range as they escorted me to the nearest psychiatric unit for a check up.
Think he looks strange check out these idiots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omkfit4NK_A Last edited by manta49; March 11, 2013 at 03:41 PM. |
March 11, 2013, 04:07 PM | #42 |
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I do like the idea of teaching students to look around through the course of shooting to make them habitual in checking there surroundings. Some are WAY to anal about it though. I see some doing the same move every time they shoot. I read about a police officer who was shot in a shootout with his revolver. After shooting his first six rounds he emptied the cases into his hand and looked at the ground to find the brass bucket. He finally realized there wasn't one and dropped them on the ground. He then stuck his hand in his pocket to find his reloads instead of on his belt since he normally kept them in his pocket when practicing. In another instance an officer reported all his fired cases were in his pocket. He normally put them there when shooting so he didn't have to pick them up so in a shoot out he took the time, habitually, to put them in his picket rather than let then fall on the ground. I guess I'm trying to say its good to try to teach students to avoid tunnel vision and to be aware but I wouldn't teach them a repetitive movement that will continue at an inopportune time. I wouldn't want a student shooting then stopping to look around habitually while the threat is still right in front of them. If you teach it, and they practice it, no matter how counter intuitive, they just might do it.
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March 11, 2013, 04:35 PM | #43 | |
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Quote:
Last edited by manta49; March 11, 2013 at 05:57 PM. |
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March 11, 2013, 05:45 PM | #44 | |
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I don't know about anyone else, but when I look before holstering, I'm actually looking. It's not just a movement. It's knowing that if that critical moment comes, my head will actually be in the direction of any other possible threat. This is a new trend I'm seeing online. Basically, any newish type of training that a lot of people do immediately being called "Tacticool" without really considering what's going on. Some of it, I would agree with you. The Magpul "flip" for example. But looking around and behind you isn't just some "tacticool" movement, it serves a very important purpose. If you haven't trained for it, and the critical moment comes, it's VERY likely, you won't look for any other threats, and that puts you in danger. |
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March 11, 2013, 06:08 PM | #45 | |
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PS Who are these people setting themselves up as experts on what way you should react in a fire fight. I take it they are all experts who have being in numerous fire fights and have years of experience on how to react in dangerous situations. Or maybe they have read a few books ans decided they are experts. |
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March 11, 2013, 06:09 PM | #46 |
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Hahaha that video is just how I picture a bunch of "Tacticool" people grouped together! thanks for the laugh!!! I would say that if you want to "act" it out, then you better "play" it out....go to a real training facility. You should be practicing at shooting a real life person... with simunitions of course. You'd be amazed at how different your body reacts at shooting at paper targets and then shooting at live ones. I'd put money down that most will be hitting nothing but their targets legs if anything at all. Funny how a little stress throws everything off and that's not even with real bullets!
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March 11, 2013, 06:24 PM | #47 | |
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I agree that a lot of people train for it to be part of the "dance moves." For me, it's to get into the mindset that just because one threat is gone, doesn't mean there aren't other threats to worry about. No training is perfect. No training can get you prepared for every situation. There are an infinite number of what ifs that can show why the 360 check doesn't always work. But for me it's a mindset. It's the mindset that just because the immediate threat is down, it doesn't mean there aren't other threats to consider. |
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March 11, 2013, 07:15 PM | #48 |
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Jskd82, unless you have access to a 360 range, how do you propose to have shooters engage targets to their rear, unless in the context of something akin to El Presidente?
You suggest it like it's the simplest thing, but most ranges are simply not set up to accommodate that kind of a drill. The indoor range used by my IDPA club has three bays, with steel reinforced walls. We are still not able to do a 360 shoot-house, but we are able to set up simulated corridors and side doors, and engage targets to either side. Even so, for safety of the Safety Officer / Observer and the other shooters behind us, we can only turn about 80 degrees to either side of straight down-range. Your derision, and your suggestions which imply that training to engage targets to the rear should be so easy as to be commonplace, make me doubt you've had much training or range experience. (Note that the only 360 training I've had access to was at Fort Jackson, using M-16's with Blank Firing Adapters. It's hard to find 360 live ammo training.) |
March 11, 2013, 07:44 PM | #49 |
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manta49, if you have to ask who Massad Ayoob and Rob Pincus are (both are cops, very well known instructors, grandmaster competitive shooters - Mas is a grandmaster in ALL IDPA categories, and gun writers - I have been reading articles and books by Mas for 28 years) then your ability to give advice on this topic is definitely questionable.
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March 11, 2013, 07:48 PM | #50 | |
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Re: Why do some people look behind them....
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Like I said above there are training facilities that would be much more effective at learning. IDPA competitions isn't one of them.... that just my opinion though. |
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