No HK/PTR, FAL, little M1A interest here?…

[Ignition Override]

..or did it migrate to HKforums, FALfiles, M1A Forums?

There seems to be so little info here for non-AR people.

AKfiles is a good network for all of these rifles.
It seems to be a very popular collection point for “refugees”.

[imashooter]

https://www.google.com/search?q=site...t=gws-wiz#ip=1

https://www.google.com/search?q=site...client=gws-wiz

[rickyrick]

I have a nice FAL with pretty wood furniture, I posted some questions here some years ago and got good responses.
When I shoot it, it seems just “meh” to me. I still like the gun, I guess it’s a safe Queen.
I think the price of some of these rifles turns people off to them.

[44 AMP]

If you're looking for information, ask a question.

The AR field is huge, and there is lots to talk about and people love to talk about their ARs.

There are lots of people here with a lot of experience and information about other rifles too. Ask some questions, you'll see...

[44caliberkid]

I have two FAL’s, I shoot each about once a year. I really don’t have any questions about them. I read everything on the FAL Files when I first got them.

[4V50 Gary]

I attended HK armourer skool. Does that count?

[44 AMP]

I was in the last class trained at the USAOC&S (APG Md) on the M14 rifle.

Got promoted to PFC for graduating second in my class.

seems like that might count for something, too....

[Ignition Override]

I enjoyed the various responses.

44 AMP: Yes sir, that also counts quite a bit.

[stagpanther]

Friend bought a used PTR and let me clean it since he had some issues with it. I had shot a couple of HKs before but really didn't know anything about the roller-lock system--quite ingenious as i later learned. Other than it destroys brass-- which it conveniently disposes of by throwing into the next county--I really like it.

[smee78]

I own a Springfield SAR-3/8 (built on HK tooling, under HK supervision in Greece), FAL (Parts kit built on a DSA receiver, and a Springfield Armory M1A......what do you want to talk about?

[44 AMP]

Had an HK 91 in the 80s, brass comes out really hot (normal in CF semi rifles) dirty and lands several meters away. Good things from the perspective of an infantry troop. Nice shiny brass reflecting the light near your hole isn't a good thing.

To help preserve the brass, get an "ejection port buffer". This is a spring steel clip with a hard rubber block that clips over the receiver. Put it in the right place (you can put it in the wrong spot) the rubber block covers the rear edge of the ejection port to the ejected case hits it, not the metal edge of the port. It sill dents the case but doesn't "kill" it. The flutes from the chamber are only a cosmetic concern.

[stagpanther]

My friend isn't a reloader--thus he doesn't care what his PTR does to the brass.

[44 AMP]

OK, if you don't care what it does to the brass, the HK /PTR is a decent "battle rifle". A bit on the heavy side (mine weighed as much as my M1A but was several inches shorter) but "heavy" is relative, helps damp recoil and provides a degree of "robustness".

My main gripes were, not being able to operate the safety lever with the shooting hand in a firing grip, and the charging handle being a "one way" system.

Admittedly these are minor items, just my personal preferences.

The FAL also has a one way charging handle, but I could reach the safety/selector with my thumb without needed to shift my grip.

The M1A (and M1 Garand, and SVT 40) all have operating handles that can apply force in both directions if needed, and safeties that can be reached with the trigger finger with the hand in a firing grip.

[Ignition Override]

44 AMP / smee 78:

I mostly just wanted to read other peoples' comments about any or all of these 'battle rifles'. FALfiles seems mostly for builders and collectors, and to an extent their specific building culture mystifies me.

Anyway, as a Lefty, I've been used to, and always adjusted to ergos which seemed awkward on most guns I've owned, and others which gun buddies brought to the private club.

Maybe for this reason the PTR-91 seems ok. Awkwardness always seems normal, and incidentally, plenty of women in military branches of Germany, Nor., Swe., Lith., Portugal etc adjusted to the G3 rifle.

But after 980 rds. and zero issue, those unique ergos don't matter to me.
The rifle has true character, reliability so far, and despite the limited rear drum aperture selections, I really like the sights.

As for the heavy trigger, I usually pull just a very tiny bit past the initial 'edge' of the tension ("stacking"), approx. 1-2 mm, then to breathe, which allows the rest of the trigger pull to be fairly smooth.

[SR420]

[Ignition Override]

SR420:

What a beauty! Such classically-sporting features.

[Steve in Allentown,]

I've got to get a bayonet for mine!

[veprdude]

My opinion:

1. They weren't commonly fielded or at all by US troops (M14/M1A excluded)
2. M14 went out of regular service 50 years ago
3. None can be purchased under $1000
4. G3/FAL were select fire so most kits coming into the country had to get new receivers/barrels/etc
5. No method to inexpensively manufacture new semi-auto models for the US market
6. .308/7.62x51 is expensive relative to other common military calibers (5.56, 7.62x39)
7. You see similar characteristics with 7.62x54R chambered semi-auto rifles

Compare to AK/AR stuff

1. AR style rifles used to be prohibitively expensive, but now some of the most inexpensive semi-autos on the market
2. AK style rifles were dirt cheap for decades
3. Plentiful surplus ammo for super cheap
4. Common models well under $1000
5. Lighter recoil
6. Familiarity in the US with M16/AR-15 and "commie" AKs

[44 AMP]

My responses to your opinion:

1. They weren't commonly fielded or at all by US troops (M14/M1A excluded)

So? How / why does that matter?

2. M14 went out of regular service 50 years ago

Again, how/why does that matter?

3. None can be purchased under $1000

Today. I bought mine when they were $500 or less...

4. G3/FAL were select fire so most kits coming into the country had to get new receivers/barrels/etc

The M14 is also a select fire weapon. Which is why there is an M1A...

5. No method to inexpensively manufacture new semi-auto models for the US market

Since people seem to be buying the "expensive" models why would the market change??

6. .308/7.62x51 is expensive relative to other common military calibers (5.56, 7.62x39)

There is no free lunch, you pay for what you get, and the 7.52x51mm provides a different performance envelope than the 5.56 or the 7.62x39mm.

7. You see similar characteristics with 7.62x54R chambered semi-auto rifles

Relative to what? cost? availablity? define your standards, please...

Compare to AK/AR stuff

1. AR style rifles used to be prohibitively expensive, but now some of the most inexpensive semi-autos on the market

I never considered the AR prohibitively expensive. It wasn't cheap, and IMHO wasn't worth the cost for a long time, but that was 50 years ago...

2. AK style rifles were dirt cheap for decades

After the fall of the Soviet Union, they were, before that, they were "unobtainium" simply not available at any price, and the same for their ammunition. After the collapse of Soviet communism, East bloc nations sold LOTS of soviet design stuff, dirt cheap. That lasted for some time, but today has pretty much gone away.

3. Plentiful surplus ammo for super cheap

Again, true for a while, nearly all gone today....

4. Common models well under $1000

Today. Tomorrow who knows?

5. Lighter recoil

Lower powered rounds firing lighter bullets produce lighter recoil. If that matters to you, it matters. Doesn't matter to me.

6. Familiarity in the US with M16/AR-15 and "commie" AKs

Familiarity does aid market popularity. A popular look and a popular price goes a long way in market sales.

[Ignition Override]

This topic has been interesting.

Thanks for the responses.

Without being a gun builder, the unique type of enthusiasm on FALfiles still mystifies me to a large extent. I’ve spent many hours reading. The unusual ie “my Argy/ Izzy on an Imbel receiver etc” is far beyond that of AKfiles.

Maybe the interest on FAL is simple collecting more than building, but if so, how do they know which mixes of milsurp components are the most interesting combos?

[stagpanther]

After the fall of the Soviet Union, they were, before that, they were "unobtainium" simply not available at any price, and the same for their ammunition.

Chinese Norinco SKS's and AKs were plentiful on the US market in the early/mid 1980's; the SKS's available for under $100 and the AK's around $100/$125. I bought my first one back then. 50 pack 7.62 x 39 was around $5.00 to $10.00 IIRC. They were sometimes being given away at car dealerships and other commercial sales promotions drawings.

[44 AMP]

The "official" date is 89, when they tore down the wall, but the Soviet Union was "falling" some years before that, and of course, didn't control the Chinese.

[std7mag]

I guess I have 2 "battle" rifles.
Or none, depending upon what you claim as a "battle" rifle.
1) M1 Carbine Paratrooper
2) Keltec Sub 2000

The M1 Carbine is a really fun rifle to shoot! But for some reason always got a bad rap as "underpowered". Personally my experience is about 357Mag energy on targets. The gallon jugs of water react about the same at equal distances.

Interestingly enough, the Sub 2000 has the same recoil impulse as the M1 Carbine.
Still fairly accurate out to 100 yards with open sights (front sight is fully adjustable).
And the reverse HK slap is kinda fun. Lol

[44 AMP]

1) M1 Carbine Paratrooper
2) Keltec Sub 2000

By my definition of "battle rifle" I'd say yes to the M1 and no to the Keltec.

The M1 Carbine makes it, because of what it isn't, it isn't an assault rifle.

The Keltec doesn't make it because its not chambered in a rifle cartridge, its 9x19mm or .40 S&W.

[HiBC]

Without being a gun builder, the unique type of enthusiasm on FALfiles still mystifies me to a large extent. I’ve spent many hours reading. The unusual ie “my Argy/ Izzy on an Imbel receiver etc” is far beyond that of AKfiles.

Maybe the interest on FAL is simple collecting more than building, but if so, how do they know which mixes of milsurp components are the most interesting combos?

Long ago, I bought an STG58 kit and built a rifle on a DSA receiver. The FAL has its history. Its a great battle rifle from its time.

For my old,out of shape self, it (and the steel magazines) are just too darn heavy to carry on a long walk for fun. For myself,its a gun to drive to the range with. Its fun to shoot. It looks cool. But...that does not make ME look cool.
Few images are more ridiculous than a semi-old,semi-fat, semi-ambulatory guy
decked out and armed to look like a Mike Hoare mercenary. I look better with a Rolling Block.

I have a DPMS LR 308L . Out of the box 7.9 lbs. Like the AR-15,its a grown man's Barbie Doll. Infinite options. The FAL.not so much.

You can,(and I did) scope an FAL. OK. But the receiver cover with clamp screws is an adaptation. The rail top on the AR-10 clones is superior.

Accuracy? For 3 to 5 shots MY FAL was pretty good. Better than 1 1/2 MOA at 100 yds with IMI ball. Then it warmed up and walked. The design is great for a battle rifle but the AR-10 clone is inherently EZ make very accurate.

My free floated DPMS shoots quite well for a production sporter.

The FAL trigger sucks. Its not friendly to improvement. The original DPMS trigger was fine. I think it has a Jewell now. Trigger improvement is "just buy one"

The AR-10 clone owner has infinite options to "Have it your way".

Not so much with the FAL. Its hard to make it anything greater than a dated,heavy,iron sighted battle rifle, A darn good one!! With "Cool" and history. Granted!

For my tastes, I get everything the FAL has to offer in a more elegant ,historic (for me) rifle with a CMP M-1 Garand with the additional option of organized shoots.

Though I am not a Veteran, I have done night infiltration courses with both the M-14 and the M-1. I prefer the smooth belly of the Garand over the prodruding box of the M-14 ,FAL,etc when negotiating bushes and barbed wire without being detected.

With respect to SR-420 (Who prefers the Harley Davidson of battle rifles)

If a person were to ask me "How should I spend my money? " on the rifles in question, I'd say an AR-10 clone or a CMP Garand, depending on the "feels"

Note Garands and AR-10 clones are prominent in the forums.