A Discussion on PCC's.

[Rojack79]

So I'm interested in getting a PCC for a SHTF scenario and I might as well talk about Rifles as well seeing as I want to get an AR-15. My problem is I don't have any experience with either platform. I'm great with handguns, have been shooting those for over 15 years now. But I'm not at all good nor have I ever fired a Pistol Caliber Carbine or an AR-15 Rifle. Anyone have any recommendations in those areas for a good SHTF qaulity version of both weapons systems?

If you want a price range, for now let's say anything under a $1000 bucks.

[Destructo6]

If you want an AR, i'd suggest buying one in .223 first. At least, that would allow you to get acquainted with the standard before veering off the rails to a PCC adaptation of the same.

9mm ARs are known to be fairly finicky. I'm sure there are quite a few folks that have never had a problem with theirs, but for each one of them, there are a dozen who had to play with buffer weight, spring strength, mags, etc. to get them to function.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by Destructo6

If you want an AR, i'd suggest buying one in .223 first. At least, that would allow you to get acquainted with the standard before veering off the rails to a PCC adaptation of the same.

9mm ARs are known to be fairly finicky. I'm sure there are quite a few folks that have never had a problem with theirs, but for each one of them, there are a dozen who had to play with buffer weight, spring strength, mags, etc. to get them to function.

Ok quick question, and this may be dumb but I'm going to ask it anyway lol, wouldn't it technically be better to get a 5.56 considering it can also shoot .223 or am I getting that mixed up and it's actually the other way around?

[Rojack79]

And that sucks to hear about 9mm PCC'S. What about other PCC Calibers?

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Rojack79

And that sucks to hear about 9mm PCC'S. What about other PCC Calibers?

Blowbacks are a design that has been used for 9mm PCCs, and sadly, some companies did not go back to the basics to understand what they are doing. That has created several that don't run well, blow out extractors, eat triggers, etc. I did a lot of T&E for a few manufacturers and I have several myself, as well as building a bunch for customers. Unless you want something sexy, I tell folks today to look at the KelTec Sub2000, the Ruger PC or the S&W FPC. Glock mags or M&P mags, pick your poison.

PCCs have been around for a long time, but the last 10 years they have blown up in popularity. Folks have made them in .40, .45, 10mm and others. Back in the day, the .30Carbine and Marlin Camp Carbines were the only games in town, but we are well past. The problem with the more powerful PCCs is that the pressure and energy in a blowback is countered by MASS of the bolt assembly and buffer. For 9mm, it should be (by design) in the range of 1.5 to 2 pounds. Very few get there. For .45 it is over 2 pounds, .40 is up near 3 pounds and 10mm is over 4 pounds. There are a scant few DI (standard AR15 operating system) AR15 pattern PCCs, but they are niche and specialty driven. I have two 10mm DI AR15s, and they are great, but kind of a reloaders proposition.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Rojack79

Ok quick question, and this may be dumb but I'm going to ask it anyway lol, wouldn't it technically be better to get a 5.56 considering it can also shoot .223 or am I getting that mixed up and it's actually the other way around?

Rarely will you see an AR15 in .223Rem. They are typically 5.56 Nato or the hybrid, .223 Wylde. You should not shoot 5.56 Nato ammo in a .223Rem chamber. But the VAST majority of commercially sold ammo is .223Rem.

If you are looking to get into a Standard AR15, I'd suggest you look at PSA and Radical. Very Budget friendly, and they run just fine. PSA is consumer direct, so you are going to pay transfer fees. Radical should be able to be ordered in by any LGS.

[Rothdel]

2 suggestions.

Not all PCC's have to be of an AR style design. I would suggest that a good place to start is to look at the pistols you use and find a PCC that supports your prefered handguns magazine. For instance many PCC's use Glock Magazines which is what I shoot the most and have the most of. Off the top of my head Ruger PC carbine, Keltec sub2000, Draco 9, Stribog AC1 (might be the 3), and Henry Homesteader all support the use of glock mags. I'm sure there are others. I have the Keltec and the Ruger and both are fun to shoot, economical, and for me have been reliable.

In terms of 223 vs 5.56 you will find many manufacturers now chamber in 223 wylde. This will allow both cartridges to be used with accuracy not being degraded for either. Not sure if the claims are legitimate but I have several AR's in the chambering and I have been happy with the results shooting both 223 and 5.56.

[Rojack79]

Alright, I'll give them both a look then, thanks for the help and advice.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by Rothdel

2 suggestions.

Not all PCC's have to be of an AR style design. I would suggest that a good place to start is to look at the pistols you use and find a PCC that supports your prefered handguns magazine. For instance many PCC's use Glock Magazines which is what I shoot the most and have the most of. Off the top of my head Ruger PC carbine, Keltec sub2000, Draco 9, Stribog AC1 (might be the 3), and Henry Homesteader all support the use of glock mags. I'm sure there are others. I have the Keltec and the Ruger and both are fun to shoot, economical, and for me have been reliable.

In terms of 223 vs 5.56 you will find many manufacturers now chamber in 223 wylde. This will allow both cartridges to be used with accuracy not being degraded for either. Not sure if the claims are legitimate but I have several AR's in the chambering and I have been happy with the results shooting both 223 and 5.56.

Ahhh, ok. Now that's interesting, I don't think I've heard too much about .223 Wylde. I'll definitely look into it, especially if it can shoot that plus .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO.

[stagpanther]

I've built quite a few blowback PCCs and found most of them were a bit unpredictable depending on the type of ammo and lower configuration. For whatever reason(s); it was decided early on that PCC lowers should accomodate either Glock or M&P style mags. That resulted in most of the problems in reliably chambering ammo IMO.

I eventually discovered the 9mm Colt magwell adaptor and determined this set-up is far superior to all other alternatives that I've tried with the possible exception of CMMG's delayed unlocking bolt banshees.

The advantages of Colt's approach IMO:

First and foremost--Colt's adaptor is all steel and can simply be inserted into a conventional AR lower. Second, Colt's magazine presentation of the bullet to the chamber is straight-on as opposed to the angled presentation common to Glock magazines. The straight-ahead presentation reduces the likelihood of the bullet hanging up on the chamber. Third, Colt's adaptor also has a built-in ramp between the cartridge and chamber, Glock style lowers usually have a "free flight" phase as the cartridge is swatted from the magazine and crosses space unsupported to the chamber. Lastly, Colt's adaptor is fully adjustable to rais and lower within the well as well adjusting the ejector.

Because it is a blowback, I use a simple carbon tube handguard wich allows me to quickly spin it off and swap barrels in a minute or two.

[Rothdel]

Ahhh, ok. Now that's interesting, I don't think I've heard too much about .223 Wylde. I'll definitely look into it, especially if it can shoot that plus .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO.

223 Wylde is not actually a cartridge its just a designation to show that it can shoot both 223 and 5.56 with out losing accuracy in the 223. Someone with a better understanding can explain better than I can.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Rothdel

223 Wylde is not actually a cartridge its just a designation to show that it can shoot both 223 and 5.56 with out losing accuracy in the 223. Someone with a better understanding can explain better than I can.

Not a cartridge, nor a designation, it is a chambering. There are actual specs for 5.56 NATO, .223Rem and .223 Wylde.

The majority of reputable barrel companies who produce AR15 barrels have moved to .223 Wylde. JP was one of the first. I designed the first .223 Wylde chambered barrels that Nordic sold. I have only ever produced .223 Wylde chambered barrels for the AR15 through Stretch Precision.

A .223 Wylde chamber is a hybrid rifle chamber allowing the use of .223 Remington and 5.56×45mm NATO ammunition. The exterior cartridge dimensions of both rounds are the same, but 5.56 NATO has pressures (62,350 psi) that are higher than the .223 Remington (55,000 psi). The 5.56 chamber has angular differences that allow higher pressures. The Wylde chambering allows both calibers to be safely fired with better accuracy.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I've built quite a few blowback PCCs and found most of them were a bit unpredictable depending on the type of ammo and lower configuration. For whatever reason(s); it was decided early on that PCC lowers should accomodate either Glock or M&P style mags. That resulted in most of the problems in reliably chambering ammo IMO.

I eventually discovered the 9mm Colt magwell adaptor and determined this set-up is far superior to all other alternatives that I've tried with the possible exception of CMMG's delayed unlocking bolt banshees.

The advantages of Colt's approach IMO:

First and foremost--Colt's adaptor is all steel and can simply be inserted into a conventional AR lower. Second, Colt's magazine presentation of the bullet to the chamber is straight-on as opposed to the angled presentation common to Glock magazines. The straight-ahead presentation reduces the likelihood of the bullet hanging up on the chamber. Third, Colt's adaptor also has a built-in ramp between the cartridge and chamber, Glock style lowers usually have a "free flight" phase as the cartridge is swatted from the magazine and crosses space unsupported to the chamber. Lastly, Colt's adaptor is fully adjustable to rais and lower within the well as well adjusting the ejector.

Because it is a blowback, I use a simple carbon tube handguard wich allows me to quickly spin it off and swap barrels in a minute or two.

Oooh these are very nice, I'm definitely going to look into Colt.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by Rothdel

223 Wylde is not actually a cartridge its just a designation to show that it can shoot both 223 and 5.56 with out losing accuracy in the 223. Someone with a better understanding can explain better than I can.

Ahh ok, so I have to look for a .223 Wylde Gun then. Alright.

[9x19]

PSA's AR-V has become my favorite 9mm carbine. It uses CZ Scorpion style mags which are very reliable in my experience and very reasonably priced.

Not mentioned above is the 5.7x28mm. The Ruger LCC has become my favorite pistol caliber carbine for a number of reasons: low recoil, works well suppressed and has a shorter overall length than AR-pattern guns (like the KelTec and Beretta CX4). The ammo can be a bit pricey, so if I were a really high-volume shooter, that would be a detriment.

Good luck, and have fun.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by 9x19

PSA's AR-V has become my favorite 9mm carbine. It uses CZ Scorpion style mags which are very reliable in my experience and very reasonably priced.

Not mentioned above is the 5.7x28mm. The Ruger LCC has become my favorite pistol caliber carbine for a number of reasons: low recoil, works well suppressed and has a shorter overall length than AR-pattern guns (like the KelTec and Beretta CX4). The ammo can be a bit pricey, so if I were a really high-volume shooter, that would be a detriment.

Good luck, and have fun.

PSA AR-V, ok I'll give that a look then. And yeah sadly for now at least my money has to be spent wisely. I can't afford to just go and buy any caliber unfortunately. From what I've looked into 9mm seems to be the least expensive PCC Caliber to shoot.

[stagpanther]

From what I've looked into 9mm seems to be the least expensive PCC Caliber to shoot.

Not only is it the least expensive--it's the most available and also VERY fun to shoot out of a carbine. You won't regret it.

[44 AMP]

The first thing you need to look at is the law where you live.

If your state is one of the ones with restrictions on magazine capacity, or on the rifles themselves, If your state does, then getting a semi auto PCC may be a moot point.

If that's not an issue, other things to look at are, what kind of thing are you looking for? A military STYLE carbine? One that is more "civilian" looking? A semi auto reproduction of an SMG?? A purpose designed PCC, or an adaptation of a different gun (such as the AR) to make it a PCC?? These are things to consider.

The intent of a pistol caliber carbine is to extend the easily usable range over what is possible using the same round fired from a handgun. The carbine has "more to hold on to" greater sight radius (iron sights) often allows optical sights, and the longer barrel gives a boost in velocity reducing drop at longer ranges. Easier to use (aim and hit accurately) at greater distances than the handgun.

I've had a couple, purpose built guns, not adaptations of larger actions to shoot pistol cartridges.

One was an Auto Ordnance M1927A1 Deluxe. Fun gun, really neat, literally a semi auto legal Tommygun. .45ACP. Heavy as hell (over 10lbs). Mine worked well (not all do, apparently) and very accurate once you mastered the spongy mush that was the trigger pull. Not practical, but lots of fun.

The other is a Calico 9mm carbine. Purpose built, unique design, some great design features, pretty light, accurate, trigger is on the stiff side but usable, and uses 50 or 100 rnd magazines.

I would choose it over any AR (unless you are going to use the AR as a multi caliber platform). I don't know if they are still in production though. Thanks to a majority of misguided morons in my state, I can no longer buy the magazines, and if the pending bill becomes law won't be able to buy the gun, either. I get to keep what I've got, though, how kind of them,.....

The Kel-Tecs are lower cost, not very stylish, but from what I've heard, they work, and if not, Kel-Tec fixes them. I have no direct personal experience with them, though.

Semi auto PCCs are high on the gun banner's hit list. Personally, I find lever gun PCC to have more practical utility in my life, good companions to my revolvers, and better performers in the game fields or pest control over the usual semi auto pistol cartridges.

[Shadow9mm]

If your dead set on pcc, get a ruger pc carbine with the magpul backpacker stock. And get a replacement steel ejector.

I however would recommend you get a 223/5.56 rifle. It will be more potent, shoot flatter, have more range. Recoil is mild.

If you end up getting a pcc, id reccomend staying away from the 9mm ar platforms in particular. They are fickle things.

[DaleA]

PSA AR-V, ok I'll give that a look then. And yeah sadly for now at least my money has to be spent wisely.

Shooting, IMhO, is fun. I'd recommend you spend your money on ammunition and shoot what you have for a while and enjoy it.

My recommendation would be find a range with leagues, join and shoot. It doesn't have to be SERIOUS competition. I did it, had fun, learned A LOT, improved my shooting A LOT, and again, had fun. Some leagues are pretty informal and even as a beginner you might pick up a certificate of some kind, a medal or even a trophy.

Go have fun with what you brung.
(All advice in this post is free and comes with a double your money back guarantee.)

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

Not only is it the least expensive--it's the most available and also VERY fun to shoot out of a carbine. You won't regret it.

Very true that's actually why I turned in my Single Action Clone chambered in 45LC. I wanted to grab a more readily available and lower cost gun and caliber. All in all in saddened to have gotten rid of my dream gun but I'm honestly very impressed with my Canik even though I still need to take it shooting. It's got a SAO trigger that's just butter and I love that!

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The first thing you need to look at is the law where you live.

If your state is one of the ones with restrictions on magazine capacity, or on the rifles themselves, If your state does, then getting a semi auto PCC may be a moot point.

If that's not an issue, other things to look at are, what kind of thing are you looking for? A military STYLE carbine? One that is more "civilian" looking? A semi auto reproduction of an SMG?? A purpose designed PCC, or an adaptation of a different gun (such as the AR) to make it a PCC?? These are things to consider.

The intent of a pistol caliber carbine is to extend the easily usable range over what is possible using the same round fired from a handgun. The carbine has "more to hold on to" greater sight radius (iron sights) often allows optical sights, and the longer barrel gives a boost in velocity reducing drop at longer ranges. Easier to use (aim and hit accurately) at greater distances than the handgun.

I've had a couple, purpose built guns, not adaptations of larger actions to shoot pistol cartridges.

One was an Auto Ordnance M1927A1 Deluxe. Fun gun, really neat, literally a semi auto legal Tommygun. .45ACP. Heavy as hell (over 10lbs). Mine worked well (not all do, apparently) and very accurate once you mastered the spongy mush that was the trigger pull. Not practical, but lots of fun.

The other is a Calico 9mm carbine. Purpose built, unique design, some great design features, pretty light, accurate, trigger is on the stiff side but usable, and uses 50 or 100 rnd magazines.

I would choose it over any AR (unless you are going to use the AR as a multi caliber platform). I don't know if they are still in production though. Thanks to a majority of misguided morons in my state, I can no longer buy the magazines, and if the pending bill becomes law won't be able to buy the gun, either. I get to keep what I've got, though, how kind of them,.....

The Kel-Tecs are lower cost, not very stylish, but from what I've heard, they work, and if not, Kel-Tec fixes them. I have no direct personal experience with them, though.

Semi auto PCCs are high on the gun banner's hit list. Personally, I find lever gun PCC to have more practical utility in my life, good companions to my revolvers, and better performers in the game fields or pest control over the usual semi auto pistol cartridges.

Thankfully here in Arizona we have a lot of lax laws. I think if I remember correctly someone else said I'd need to make sure I register my handgun as a SBR if I get a Roni Kit for it, not sure if that still applies to PCC's but I'm kinda hoping not.

Honestly I'm mostly seeing if a PCC would be a nice addition to my collection in terms of can it help preform a role my normal side arm can't and can it possibly stop me from needing an AR or would it be better to just get an AR that has multi caliber capabilities.

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

If your dead set on pcc, get a ruger pc carbine with the magpul backpacker stock. And get a replacement steel ejector.

I however would recommend you get a 223/5.56 rifle. It will be more potent, shoot flatter, have more range. Recoil is mild.

If you end up getting a pcc, id reccomend staying away from the 9mm ar platforms in particular. They are fickle things.

Hmm ok, if I do get a PCC are there really any 9mm ones that are good or are they all crap? And would I just be better off getting a Roni Conversation Kit for my Canik if that's the case?

[Rojack79]

Originally Posted by DaleA

Shooting, IMhO, is fun. I'd recommend you spend your money on ammunition and shoot what you have for a while and enjoy it.

My recommendation would be find a range with leagues, join and shoot. It doesn't have to be SERIOUS competition. I did it, had fun, learned A LOT, improved my shooting A LOT, and again, had fun. Some leagues are pretty informal and even as a beginner you might pick up a certificate of some kind, a medal or even a trophy.

Go have fun with what you brung.
(All advice in this post is free and comes with a double your money back guarantee.)

Oh yeah, that's always been the plan, I love shooting, been doing it for almost 16 years now and have no plans on stopping anytime soon. For now I just realized I had to switch over to a more popular caliber and I'm mostly trying to see how I can make the most of it.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by Rojack79

Hmm ok, if I do get a PCC are there really any 9mm ones that are good or are they all crap? And would I just be better off getting a Roni Conversation Kit for my Canik if that's the case?

Ruger pc carbine. With the magpul backpacker stock, and a replacement hardened steel ejector.