Concentric circle arisaka questions

XxMasterHootxX · June 8, 2022, 03:50 AM

I have a kokura arsenal arisaka type 99 late war model with no other markings on it except for the concentric circle makings and a serial number of 2505 on the right side of receiver was curious as to know what the concentric circles meant as I cannot find any information think you for your time..pictures attached

Nodak1858 · June 8, 2022, 08:46 AM

From what I've read, doesn't sound like it's 100% know what they mean. Here's a link for some reading, most stories all say roughly the same from what I have found

https://type99arisakas.weebly.com/co...le-rifles.html

**44 AMP** · June 9, 2022, 06:01 PM

I'm far from an Arisaka expert but those circles are where the imperial Chrysanthemum ("Mum" for short) should be, or possibly was...

After the war, with Japan occupied, many (if not most) of the surrendered rifles had the Mum removed/scrubbed, or otherwise defaced. Stories vary, some say the Japanese did it, so they would not be surrendering the Emperor's property, some say the Americans did it, to give the Japanese a way to "save face" and promote their compliance and co-operation. I have no clue which is true, either could be, or both could be.

All I know for sure is that the rifles surrendered at the end of the war had the Mum's "ground" and while there probably are exceptions, the majority were scrubbed of the Mum and Arisakas that still have the Mum intact are generally assumed to have been battlefield trophies, not rifles surrendered at the end of the war.

No idea what the circles mean only that they are in the location where the Mum would have been on a service rifle.

The though occurs to me that the circles MIGHT be the start of the Mum marking, which was never completed on that rifle.

ernie8 · June 9, 2022, 09:13 PM

CC rifles have nothing to do with incomplete mum stamps , not even similar shapes . They were marked for a certain use and show up in small serial number blocks through all the war years . Some think secret police .

**44 AMP** · June 10, 2022, 12:14 PM

well, it was just a guess...

Scorch · June 11, 2022, 06:00 PM

The concentric circles are the symbol for the Japanese secret/paramilitary police.

The chrysanthemum was the symbol of the emperor and was used by the armed forces.

**44 AMP** · June 12, 2022, 04:09 PM

Every nation, and sometimes each régime does things their own way. I once had a "systema Colt" pistol with markings from the Argentine Secret Police.

Until now, I was unaware the Japanese had separate marking for their Secret Police guns. Some nations do, some do not.

FrankenMauser · June 13, 2022, 09:46 AM

Scorch was on it.
Police rifle.

Some of the police rifles will have the circles stamped over a ground mum. This was done by Japan, before and during the war - not by occupation forces after the war.
But most were stamped when new, and they have their own serial number blocks outside of military serial production.

June 8, 2022, 08:46 AM	#2
Nodak1858 Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2009 Location: N. Dakota Posts: 431	From what I've read, doesn't sound like it's 100% know what they mean. Here's a link for some reading, most stories all say roughly the same from what I have found https://type99arisakas.weebly.com/co...le-rifles.html __________________ We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.

June 9, 2022, 06:01 PM	#3
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 27,706	I'm far from an Arisaka expert but those circles are where the imperial Chrysanthemum ("Mum" for short) should be, or possibly was... After the war, with Japan occupied, many (if not most) of the surrendered rifles had the Mum removed/scrubbed, or otherwise defaced. Stories vary, some say the Japanese did it, so they would not be surrendering the Emperor's property, some say the Americans did it, to give the Japanese a way to "save face" and promote their compliance and co-operation. I have no clue which is true, either could be, or both could be. All I know for sure is that the rifles surrendered at the end of the war had the Mum's "ground" and while there probably are exceptions, the majority were scrubbed of the Mum and Arisakas that still have the Mum intact are generally assumed to have been battlefield trophies, not rifles surrendered at the end of the war. No idea what the circles mean only that they are in the location where the Mum would have been on a service rifle. The though occurs to me that the circles MIGHT be the start of the Mum marking, which was never completed on that rifle. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 10, 2022, 12:14 PM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 27,706	well, it was just a guess... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 11, 2022, 06:00 PM	#6
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,241	The concentric circles are the symbol for the Japanese secret/paramilitary police. The chrysanthemum was the symbol of the emperor and was used by the armed forces. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

June 12, 2022, 04:09 PM	#7
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 27,706	Every nation, and sometimes each régime does things their own way. I once had a "systema Colt" pistol with markings from the Argentine Secret Police. Until now, I was unaware the Japanese had separate marking for their Secret Police guns. Some nations do, some do not. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 9, 2022, 09:13 PM	#4
ernie8 Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2018 Posts: 183	CC rifles have nothing to do with incomplete mum stamps , not even similar shapes . They were marked for a certain use and show up in small serial number blocks through all the war years . Some think secret police .

June 13, 2022, 09:46 AM	#8
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,223	Scorch was on it. Police rifle. Some of the police rifles will have the circles stamped over a ground mum. This was done by Japan, before and during the war - not by occupation forces after the war. But most were stamped when new, and they have their own serial number blocks outside of military serial production. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

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