AR15 groups change size when handguard removed?

[jmstr]

Hello,

Long story.

Basically, I am trying to diagnose why my AR15 upper [PSA .223 Wylde] will get different group sizes when I shoot with my wooden Rifle-length traditional handguard vs when it was shot with no handguard. 25 yard test firing of 3 rounds.

The difference is that no handguard will usually get 2 of 3 shots touching, and the third about 1 bullet diameter away, and higher.

With handguard on I get groups that differ in height by no more than 1/2 bullet hole diameter, but have 1 and 1/2 bullet holes between them, in a relatively horizontal line.

Any tips on how to fine-tune the handguard to tighten the group size?


Yes, I want to keep the wooden standard handguard installed, and not use a free-floating handguard, as I am in California and trying to avoid a 'black rifle' bias in my neighbors.

tips would be appreciated!

[DubC-Hicks]

https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/ser...-assembly.html

Something like this might be of interest, if you're willing to disassemble the upper and grind/cut off the sling swivel on the front sight base. You can be free floated and keep your handguards.

Otherwise, there's not much you can do if you keep it non-free floated. Other than try to keep any pressure off the barrel/handguards.

[tangolima]

I was about to recommend the same product. It will increase the weight noticeably. Drill holes on it may help. You will need to pull the gas block / tube to install though, just like installing a free-float handguard.

I am also behind enemy line in CA. I doubt they will go easy on you for the wood.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[44 AMP]

Basically, I am trying to diagnose why my AR15 upper [PSA .223 Wylde] will get different group sizes when I shoot with my wooden Rifle-length traditional handguard vs when it was shot with no handguard.

The "why" is easy, its the "how/what to do" that gets complicated.

The why is because the barrel (and everything else) vibrate differently with, and without the handguard in place.

A few things to consider in your quest for better groups....

the first one being, why does it matter how the gun shoots with the handguard removed, are you going to be using it that way???

Next point, before you start tinkering with the rifle, consider if the rifle, the SHOOTER, the sights (optics?), trigger, and especially the AMMO are capable of shooting the "better groups" you are looking for...
All those have to work together, and any one of them not being up to the task of delivering the results you are looking for means you probably won't get those results...

People are quick to say "use this part" or "try this, it will fix your problem", without any idea if it will, or not. Maybe it worked for them, with their gun, but that is no guarantee it will work the same for you, with yours.

It might, it might not. Here's a tip, when you are testing/troubleshooting, only change ONE variable at a time, then test.

Simplest and easiest thing to change is the ammo, or the shooter. If possible have someone else (hopefully someone with the demonstrated ability to shoot well) try your gun and ammo and see what kind of results they get.

IF they shoot better groups than you do, with your rifle and ammo, then the thing that needs adjusting isn't the gun, its you. IF they get the same results you do, then MAYBE tinkering with the rifle and/or ammo will produce better results. Only trial and error testing will tell you, and always consider that getting the "better groups" you're looking for may not actually be possible with what you are using.

You might try everything under the sun and still be where you are right now. You might find the "sweet spot" and get the improvement you are looking for. The trick is to wind up no worse.

Good Luck!

[MarkCO]

If TFL had a "Like" button, I could have used that on 44 Amp's post. But this will have to do.

[jetinteriorguy]

First of all, three round groups aren’t really telling you very much, and shooting at 25yds isn’t really going to give you any real idea about actual accuracy. You could shoot bug holes at 25 yds and be 2-3 MOA at 100 yds or even further. I’ve been through this myself due to constraints on available places to shoot where I live. IME until you get to 300yds it’s pretty much impossible to do any real fine tuning for accuracy.

[mehavey]

...300yds ...real fine tuning for accuracy....

Maybe not.
But if issues already show up at 25, things sure aren't gonna get better with longer ranges.

That said... without a floated barrel, forearm pressure and change in barrel harmonic node point(s) are always going to be issues to be dealt with.

[Shadow9mm]

You want to have your cake and eat it too.

The traditional hand guard is connected to the barrel and will effect the barrels harmonics.

By removing and shooting the rifle with no hand guard you basically free floted it already.

As i see it you have 3 options.

Options 1, free float it and be done with it

Option 2, get a cortina tuner brake. Basically try to tune the barrels harmonics to reduce group sizes.

Options 3, hand load. Basically tuning the load itself to the barrels Harmonics to reduce group size.

No guarantee options 2 or 3 will work well or at all. Only guaranteed option is #1. You want a traditional wooden hand guard, you deal with the side effects.

Other thoughts.
do you have a good trigger in the lower? That can make it a fair bit easier to get good consistent groups.

What ammo are you using?

I believe 3 shots groups are not enough data points to get reliable data. Personally I will not shoot less than 10 shots now and 20 shots is recommended. Hornady did an excellent podcast on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwumAGRmz2I

[hoopharted]

personally i believe the best thing you can upgrade is the trigger to improve your groups , as for handguards free float or not , if you plan on equipping a bunch of junk on the rifle thats where a FF HG will be beneficial , because adding all of that will not affect the harmonics of your barrel at all

take any standard rifle thats zeroed in , install a clamp on bi-pod and watch what happens to your groups , move it forward on the barrel ,move it back , the Free float allows you to add all of that without affecting the barrel

when you shoot off a bag and rest the barrel on the bag , you are affecting POI by the pressure you apply to the barrel , so you will never gain consistency without being mindfull of basics

if you sight your rifle with a M4 drop in handguard and zero it properly it will be as accurate than installing a $200 FF HG and properly zero it

by adding a nice trigger the control over the shot , the pressure needed , the reset all make it "easier"

[MarkCO]

personally i believe the best thing you can upgrade is the trigger to improve your groups

A case of ammo and practice will be a better benefit. Triggers mask poor fundamentals, they do not improve inherent accuracy.

[44 AMP]

Triggers mask poor fundamentals, they do not improve inherent accuracy.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I don't see how the trigger masks anything. Poor fundamentals are going to show through, good trigger or bad. Now, blaming the trigger for poor fundamentals is not uncommon, but that's not the trigger masking anything, its the user misassigning blame.

I do agree that triggers do not improve inherent accuracy, since inherent means "existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute", and when we speak of the "inherent accuracy" of a firearm, we are talking about things that happen after the trigger is pulled, or exist independent of the trigger entirely.

That being said, triggers play a large role in the user's ability to effectively and efficiently, and accurately USE the firearm.

I don't think a lot of practice (case of ammo) shooting something with a piece of crap trigger helps improve one's shooting skill, though it can help improve one's familiarity and ability to get the most possible from the piece of crap, that's not the same as improving one's shooting skills.

If the shooter is doing things the right way (the best way possible) improving the trigger can improve groups by improving the ease and consistency of using the firearm.

If the shooter isn't doing the right things, improving the trigger only makes doing the wrong things a little easier.....

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

A case of ammo and practice will be a better benefit. Triggers mask poor fundamentals, they do not improve inherent accuracy.

Really depends on the trigger. Imho, with the quality of most firearms the limiting factor is the shooter not the weapon most times. Ergo, if modifying the weapon makes the weapon perform better the weapon itself was the limiting factor for the shooter and keeping them from progressing.

But back to the trigger. A bad mil spec trigger at 8lb, with lots of creep, grit, and over travel can be a significantly limiting factor for a shooter. There are bad triggers, ok triggers, good triggers, and great triggers. Until we know whats in the gun, we cant say whether or not that may be a problem.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

A case of ammo and practice will be a better benefit. Triggers mask poor fundamentals, they do not improve inherent accuracy.

While triggers do not improve inherent accuracy, they can improve fundamentals. A better trigger and more shooting will improve fundamentals even more.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

Triggers mask poor fundamentals,...

I count on it!

I have fallen into the trap of pursuing better triggers for a long time. Like wine and whiskey, one result of the pursuit of excellence can be that perfectly fine things seem unsatisfactory. I've tried to draw my own focus away from the trigger press, to make it less examined and more reflexive.

[MarkCO]

Seems I've hit a topic worthy of discussion, so I'll start one rather than drift this thread off the OP.

[JohnKSa]

Ergo, if modifying the weapon makes the weapon perform better the weapon itself was the limiting factor for the shooter and keeping them from progressing.

This is true if the performance is being measured using the same configuration/methods/shooting positions that will be used when the weapon is put to its actual purpose.

In other words, (to use a purely hypothetical example) let's say the user is testing a rifle from the bench, with the handguard removed and a 24x scope installed, decides to add an accuracy tuning muzzle device and finds the groups shrink by 20%.

Then they re-install a non-free-float handguard, take the 24x scope off, replace it with a red dot sight and take it to a match that requires them to shoot from various field positions. The improvement in group size that showed up shooting from the bench and with the rifle differently configured probably won't even be detectable in the match results.

[zeke]

All other things aside, ime the traditional handguards are a tight fit. On all the ar's and M1A's owned, have loosened the fit so the handguard can rotate very slightly. This improved the accuracy slightly on all of them.

[ballardw]

M1A with a rotating handguard?? Loose I can believe but not rotating in any noticeable fashion.

[zeke]

rotate very slighty=loose . to be even loose, doesn't it have to rotate very slightly?

[tangolima]

I think M16A4 has a free float handguard. KAC M5 RAS? It is quite expensive and heavy. Anything think equivalent to that and costs less? I want to keep the fixed front sight and the appearance of service rifle.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

PS That handguard is not free-float.

[44 AMP]

My M1A is GI "Rack grade" gun. Other than the receiver its all GI parts, the stock even has the FA parts cut out. The handguard is the standard "plastic" GI snap on one and its not even remotely "tight fitting". Rotate? no. It can't, being in contact with the stock, there's no way it rotates any. A slight wiggle is possible with hand pressure, but it doesn't turn or twist, there's simply no place for it go in order to do that.

The last AR I had, (and that was 30 years ago) was a copy of the XM 177 (in semi, of course) and its round handguards were pretty snug fitting, but that gun's accuracy was never a concern to me. Although round in profile the handguard attachment system was the same as the M16A1, not the free floated barrel of later models.

[zeke]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

My M1A is GI "Rack grade" gun. Other than the receiver its all GI parts, the stock even has the FA parts cut out. The handguard is the standard "plastic" GI snap on one and its not even remotely "tight fitting". Rotate? no. It can't, being in contact with the stock, there's no way it rotates any. A slight wiggle is possible with hand pressure, but it doesn't turn or twist, there's simply no place for it go in order to do that.

The last AR I had, (and that was 30 years ago) was a copy of the XM 177 (in semi, of course) and its round handguards were pretty snug fitting, but that gun's accuracy was never a concern to me. Although round in profile the handguard attachment system was the same as the M16A1, not the free floated barrel of later models.

After checking "wiggle" is definitely a more accurate description on my M1A handguards. Both of which were tight (aka snug) when purchased. My modified ar handguards definitely rotate very slightly.