How commonly was this done? Part 2

[Bob Wright]

The original thread by this name sparked my memory of many, many years ago, before GCA 1968 etc. During this era many surplus revolvers flooded the market. Many of these were of odd calibers, and distributors altered them to more common cartridges to make them more marketable, and sold for very attractive prices.

A bunch of S&W Terrier revolvers, and Colt Bankers Specials, original .38n S&W caliber, were simply reamed to take .38 Special cartridges. When fired, the .38 Special case bulged somewhat near the base, but so far as I know, no catastrophic failures occurred.

British Royal Irish Constabulary revolvers, .442 Calibers, had their chambers and barrels lined to convert to to .25-20 Winchester. It's hard to think of a more useless revolver conversion.

And Webley .455s had their cylinders shaved to accept .45 ACP w/half moon clips.

Surplus Colt New Service models from Canada, originally .455s, had their cylinders reamed to accept .45 Colt.

Many Colt New Service and Shingle Action Army models were converted to various .40 caliber. Among thse were the .401 Eimer or .401 Special. There were popular in my area among cotton men who had a private hunting club in the Mississippi Delta area that abounded with wild hogs.

And double action Colts (I never saw a converted S&W) M1917s were reamed to accept the .43 Eimer round. This round was a .44 (.429" bore or so) based on a shortened .30-06 case. The ACP cylinder bored out for the longer case, which was used with ACP half moon clips. (I never saw full moon clips until fairly recent times.)

In more modern times, Ruger Single Sixes were converted to various .22 and .25 centerfire cartridges. The late Frank Haas was a proponent of the .25 K-Chuck, based on the .22 Hornet.

These were made as the revolvers were sold at very attractive prices. My first Colt New Service was priced at $24.95, plus $5.00 more for select condition. Webleys and Enfield revolver were $14.95, and one holster maker offered a bucadero rig for $14.95 and would throw in a .45 revolver (A Webley too break) at no extra charge! Some of the Webley RICs went for the "Under $10,00 Page!"

Those were the days!

Bob Wright

[rodfac]

Good review of the late 50's and early 60's if memory serves. A bit before my time as I didn't get my first .22 until '61; but an uncle brought me his American Rifleman on a regular basis. I do recall some of the Flaggs advertisements that were featured. My first gun related purchase was from the old Red & Yellow Herter's catalogue: a "guide" model pocket knife. Rod

[44 AMP]

Those were the days!

Except for the fact that a "good paying job" earned you $200 a month!

[Bill DeShivs]

Bob- I don't believe a S&W Terrier or Colt Banker's Special cylinder is long enough for a .38 Special. The other guns you mentioned certainly were converted.

[eastbank]

yes, i made 64.00 a week in the late 50,s-early 60,s. not much gun money left after paying bills.

[Bob Wright]

Well, I never bought one nor handled one. I only saw them advertised and heard from those who did told of swollen cases. Maybe they used wadcutters? My Dad had a foreign made Single Action that took both .38 S&W and .38 Specials, as well as .38 Long Colt cartridges.

Bob Wright

Bob Wright

[44 AMP]

Case drawings in my old books show .38 S&W as .380" at the mouth and .38 Special as .379" at the mouth.

Given that a lot of the guns are a little "oversize" a noticeable bulge in Special brass can happen. However, since the bulge is at the rear of the case, not in the middle, it normally doesn't hamper extraction.

[natman]

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

And Webley .455s had their cylinders shaved to accept .45 ACP w/half moon clips.

It's worth mentioning that even though 45 ACP ammo will fit in a shaved Webley, that Webleys were originally made for black powder and even the newer smokeless ones weren't made for 45 ACP pressure. They should only be fired with lead bullets and light loads. Shooting modern jacketed loads is like firing multiple proof loads. Even if it doesn't blow up, it WILL shoot loose.

[JohnKSa]

Even if it doesn't blow up, it WILL shoot loose.

Right. Actual blow-ups seem to have been rare, but the heavier loads will eventually turn those old guns into a rather loosely associated collection of parts that won't function properly.

[44 AMP]

Right. Actual blow-ups seem to have been rare, but the heavier loads will eventually turn those old guns into a rather loosely associated collection of parts that won't function properly.

This is true of all top break revolver designs. Shoot too hot ammo, they don't last long.

I've got a Mk VI, (1917) smokeless all the way! .455 Webley smokeless, or the equivalent in .45 ACP brass! NOT for .45acp AMMO!!!!!.

[RoyceP]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

This is true of all top break revolver designs. Shoot too hot ammo, they don't last long.

I've got a Mk VI, (1917) smokeless all the way! .455 Webley smokeless, or the equivalent in .45 ACP brass! NOT for .45acp AMMO!!!!!.

I have an Enfield top break (the seller thought it was a Webley.....) that is perhaps the strongest design ever built of its type. The British used a hot rodded 38-200 loading (Also known as the .380 revolver over there) and it is a weird DA only action. I like it. Will have to buy the equivalent Webley since it is DA / SA.

[44 AMP]

The idea of "hot loading" and the .38-200 round just don't seem to belong in the same sentence.

The .38-200, the .380 revolver and the .38 S&W are essentially the same. Its not a hot round by any means, even very old standards. The 200gr loading is listed at 630fps, the 145gr load listed at 730fps.

the original British load was the 200gr Lead, exactly the same as US .38 S&W. A bit later the British switched to a 178gr FMJ slug. Hague convention, and all that old chap....

[Jim Watson]

Webley would sell you a front sight blade of the right height to zero with commercial 146 gr .38 S&W, too.

[OldManMontgomery]

I have a much modified Victory model S&W (WW2 era) that was 'rechambered' (reamed out) to chamber .38 Special. I bought it at a gun show as it was cheap and no one else wanted it. It was lonely.
I've never fired it.
However I have recently found that .38 S&W ammo does in fact chamber and has no wiggle when chambered.

I noted a comment regarding the Webley top break in .455. I have one. It is shaved for .45 ACP. However, it will accept .45 AutoRim cases. Knowing the lesser pressure of the .455 round, I loaded some .45 AutoRim with 255 grain .45 Colt bullets (lead) and a cautious dose of slow (gentle) powder and it shoots well. Not that I shoot it a lot. But it does seem a good revolver for personal defense in such circumstances.

[RickB]

My Webley Mk. I was thankfully not converted to ACP, being a blackpowder design.
My S&W Hand Ejector Mk. II has had a M1917 cylinder installed, which allows use of .45 ACP cases, but doesn't address the .457" bore.

[44 AMP]

I have a much modified Victory model S&W (WW2 era) that was 'rechambered' (reamed out) to chamber .38 Special. I bought it at a gun show as it was cheap and no one else wanted it. It was lonely.
I've never fired it.
However I have recently found that .38 S&W ammo does in fact chamber and has no wiggle when chambered.

OF course it does, and it should! The reaming out of chambers (done properly) does not affect the .38 S&W portion at all, what it did was to remove the ledge at the front of the .38 S&W chamber which prevents the longer .38 Special case from chambering.

By the specs, .38 Special is .379" case body diameter, and 1.15" case length. .38 S&W is .380" case body diameter, and 0.775" case length.

SO, by the specs, .38 S&W is shorter and "fatter" than .38 Special. Taking into account manufacturing tolerances, and the fact that ammunition is always made slightly under max specs, .38 S&W will often chamber in .38 Special guns, (often, not "always") .38 Special will fit into .38S&W chambers, until stopped by the front ledge. Remove that, and .38 SPl fits and works fine. And .38 S&W continues to fit and work normally.=

There is NO concern about the difference in pressure between the two rounds. The S&W "Victory Model" revolvers are standard S&W .38 special guns, the only difference was the .38 S&W ctg chambering to use the British .38/200 service cartridge instead of our .38 Special.

Worst case, the .38 Special brass swells a little at the back in the slightly larger .38 S&W chamber space. Normally, this has no effect on function, and I've never heard of it having a significant effect on .38Spl case life for reloading.

I noted a comment regarding the Webley top break in .455. I have one. It is shaved for .45 ACP. However, it will accept .45 AutoRim cases.

I also have a "shaved" Webley. A couple of important things to know about them...first, the conversion (shaving the rear of the cylinder slightly) was not done to any uniform standards. It was done by various different importers/wholesalers when the supply of .455 Webley ammo dried up.

Tough to sell old surplus pistols when there's no ammo for them. And, remember, at the time, those pistols were not sought after collector items, and converting them was a way to get them sold.

The original intent (which was almost instantly forgotten and not really advertised to begin with) was to let them use .45ACP BRASS in half moon clips, loaded to the low Webley operating pressure level.

Almost nobody bothered to do that, most just shot them with regular .45ACP AMMO, and over time, a lot of the guns broke, because .45ACP ammo is at, essentially, .455 Webley proof pressure, or even a bit above.

The people trying to get those "old surplus guns" out of their warehouses didn't make much of an effort (if any) to point that out. Once they sold it, they were done with it.

So what you find today is guns "shaved" different amounts. Your gun was cut enough to take .45AR cases or ACP cases in clips. My 1917 MK VI was just "barely" cut. It will not work with ACP brass and all clips, only certain brands (S&W works othes don't), AND it will NOT work with .45 Auto Rim cases. There just isn't enough clearance in my gun to use AR cases. My gun will also still fire .455 Webley rounds, but its on the ragged edge of reliability.

Another point is that the first Webley rated for smokeless powder was the MK IV (Mk 4). I have heard that one might find a earlier MK gun that someone shaved the cylinder on, and have also heard of MK 1-3 guns that were refitted with Mk IV cylinders by someone. I would not shoot any of those guns with smokeless powder, even at Webley standard pressures. Just simply not worth the risk.

Not really worried about one of those guns blowing up, as much as having something important simply crack and break. Webleys have been out of production for a long time, and today, about the only spare parts come out of other broken Webleys. All too often there are no parts as what broke on your gun was what broke on the parts guns....that turned them into parts guns.

I really like mine, for its nostalgia value, its fun. Alan Quartermain, and all that...

[Mike Irwin]

"Another point is that the first Webley rated for smokeless powder was the MK IV (Mk 4). I have heard that one might find a earlier MK gun that someone shaved the cylinder on, and have also heard of MK 1-3 guns that were refitted with Mk IV cylinders by someone. I would not shoot any of those guns with smokeless powder, even at Webley standard pressures. Just simply not worth the risk."

Over the years several posters here have come here with early Webley revolvers so altered, asking for advice on what they should shoot in them.

My uniform answer is... don't shoot them.

[Mike Irwin]

"A bunch of S&W Terrier revolvers, and Colt Bankers Specials, original .38n S&W caliber, were simply reamed to take .38 Special cartridges."

I don't know about the Colt Banker's Special revolver, but I do know that any surplus S&W Terriers that would have been around during the great age of military surplus sales would have been made on the standard I frame.

You're not chambering a .38 Special in an I frame. The cylinder and frame window are too small.

You'd have something of a better chance of chambering it in an Improved I frame (only, IIRC, if you used flush loaded wad cutters), but the Improved I didn't come out until after World War II, so... no surplus in any meaningful quantities.