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Old February 20, 2018, 12:05 PM   #26
HughScot
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Educate the media.

We must write to members of the media and Congress or else the AR-15 and the so called "assault rifle" will be banned. For example, someone I am very familiar with, Andrew Ross Sorkin, wrote a column for the NYT today suggesting that credit card companies (banks) refuse to allow people charging the purchase of AR-15s, etc. He lives in NYC and probably has never fired a rife. Write these people but use concise, well thought out words.
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Old February 20, 2018, 12:15 PM   #27
ATN082268
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Originally Posted by HughScot View Post
We must write to members of the media and Congress or else the AR-15 and the so called "assault rifle" will be banned. For example, someone I am very familiar with, Andrew Ross Sorkin, wrote a column for the NYT today suggesting that credit card companies (banks) refuse to allow people charging the purchase of AR-15s, etc. He lives in NYC and probably has never fired a rife. Write these people but use concise, well thought out words.
If you want to write these kinds of people, that's your call but to me it is a complete waste of time. I'd rather do something productive like sort my sock drawer...
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Old February 20, 2018, 02:22 PM   #28
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After decades of debating anti-gunners i gave it up. Don't think its possible for a dedicated anti-gunner to change his mind. i soon felt more relaxed had time for more important stuff.

Debating anti-gunners is time consuming and is akin to wrestling a big dirty boar hog in his pen. You get covered with hog poop and crud: Meanwhile the hog loves it.
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Old February 20, 2018, 03:13 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by thallub
After decades of debating anti-gunners i gave it up. Don't think its possible for a dedicated anti-gunner to change his mind.
Changing the mind of the person on the other side is relatively rare and generally not a realistic goal. I see two realistic goals in arguing these points with people of a contrary opinion.

1. Where the forum is public, you will not convince the other advocate, but you may sway those listening. If you even shift a listener's inclination on an issue, that's a good result.

2. You may actually find out what they really think. Many people will tell you what they really think only after a bit of prodding. They often begin with what they think they are supposed to think.

I've had a number of conversations in social settings, many of them with women, in which really running a point to ground isn't appropriate. Offering just a few gentle bits of contrary information has routinely prompted a retreat to something like "I don't really care about all that - I just don't like guns and would rather people didn't have them".
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Old February 20, 2018, 03:21 PM   #30
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As I told a lady in church, privacy, safety, fitness-Christianity-are not things you achieve, they are things you PRACTICE.
I agree our opponents are very narrow minded, bigoted, snobbish, arrogant and conceited, think we all morons, bigots, knuckle draggers, "bitter clingers", "deplorables". All the more reason to keep up the fight. Take a non gunner shooting. Do they like do-go after the young.
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Old February 20, 2018, 03:27 PM   #31
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Like the OP I am worn out arguing with my critical thinking, logic, problem solving experience, and real stats backing up my point of view and reality

you can not and never will change the mind of some citizen who is mostly emotional driven...

At noon today I had to turn off TV FOX news and escape to my hobby shop...sounded to me like even the 2nd Amendment pro gun commentators were acquiescing to the WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING mantra....

Lock down all schools tighter than a TSA airport (where I can still get in with a gun of I want to) is about the only rational...albeit costly, solution
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Old February 20, 2018, 03:41 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Fredvon4
Lock down all schools tighter than a TSA airport (where I can still get in with a gun of I want to) is about the only rational...albeit costly, solution.
I dissent. School shootings are rare. Transforming a school from a comfortable and open place in which children learning is the focus of the place to a place in which security theater dominates would be an error. Habituating children to obedience of bureaucracy probably isn't great for society either.

It would be nice if there were a few people around the school who carried or had access to a carbine so they could have better options than soaking up a few bullets before the killer moves on.
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Old February 20, 2018, 03:58 PM   #33
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Zukiphile

I actually agree...from a point of view that we kill so many in the shower, trampoline, pool, or car crash..... the relative loss of kids lives to school shootings.... in context is rare and low count

BUT just saying that makes me a very NON PC and hateful person...even if the stats prove me out

I personally think there is a mode to get to 80% security... but it excessive in my mind from a cost risk benefit POV

DO Nothing BUT enforce all current law seems rational to me

An total locked down school is almost as excessive a imposition to all law abiding citizens as any of the propose increased in gun control....more fees, more regulation, more taxes, more inconvenience, for actually little added security or life saving

Wear a helmet in the shower or else!!! Dam...we can save 2300 lives this year alone!
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Old February 20, 2018, 04:24 PM   #34
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To clarify. I realize I won’t win fights against someone who is hardcore against guns. That debate is pointless and serves no real purpose other than to exasperate both parties involved in the debate.

I think what I’m getting tired of is have to constantly restate/correct the misinformation and many times outright lies that he’s spewed and gobbled up by the masses. Sometimes (rarely) I get lucky and the individual can at least agree to disagree with me or sees it from another perspective. Many times however, it’s the same blustering and blubbering about how something needs to be done.

I’ve tried changing tactics as of late by turning their own questions back into them with mixed results. Asking them “okay, so we want better background checks. What do you propose?” And I explain what the current system is like. They say greater databases of information and I ask “should doctors be allowed to inform police when you are prescribed anti-depressents or some other medication designed to treat mental ailments?”.

My favorite are the ones who are anti cop this, anti police that, the police are shooting innocents! I tend to ask “okay, so you want gun violence, as the news likes to call it to go down. You say this is a job for police, yet at the same time you say police are evil or too trigger happy. How does giving them more power help our current situation. If not the police, who do you suggest should come to our aid when you’re getting mugged, raped, etc.”

I’ve had these discussions time and time and again and sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. It’s just exhausting to see the constant stream of BS that gets spewed day in and day out. It’ll never end, I understand that, however, I find it’s fatiguing just hearing about it these days.

Even if I’m not actively participating, I can’t help but feel tired as I shake my head at the people repeating the same sound bites and catch phrases spouted on the MSNN’s. Perhaps it is time to just shut down, disconnect and not even bother with counter arguing for a while. Let alone even seeing what is being said, perhaps a break every once in a while is a good thing.
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Old February 20, 2018, 04:45 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimio
I’ve had these discussions time and time and again and sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. It’s just exhausting to see the constant stream of BS that gets spewed day in and day out. It’ll never end, I understand that, however, I find it’s fatiguing just hearing about it these days.
Emphasis added.

It might help you to remember that the raging river of BS didn't start with the person to whom you may be speaking. A lot of people consume their news/infotainment and social media junk uncritically. A lot of people also talk for no good reason I can discern. When that talker is also an uncritical consumer, guess what you'll hear?

That doesn't necessarily mean they are bad people.
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Old February 20, 2018, 05:06 PM   #36
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I don't visit social media or biased news websites. The only thing I can control is my vote and if someone asks me for my opinion I will give it to them. Life is too short to stress out about people's minds you will never change. You are literally doing it to yourself.
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Old February 20, 2018, 05:57 PM   #37
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You might respond with "you can't fix stupid. You might be able to fix ignorant. Which are you???"

Ask them if they understand the concept of the Big Lie.

Ask them, if guns are evil, why do cops have them??

but, take a break, before burn out. Realize that the small minded people of the world are going to be small minded people, no matter what you do.

Trouble is, stupid people's votes count the same as everyone else's....and the number of stupid people doesn't seem to be going down. Rather the opposite.

or you might just simply correct their grammar, as too many don't realize that guns don't kill, guns are USED to kill. Show me the gun, that, without a human being involved, killed anyone...you can't. Neither can they.

Ask them to explain how when someone is shot, its the gun's fault, but when someone kills with a car, its the driver's fault. Not the car, not the car maker, the driver...

Ask them if they understand what a double standard is, and why its hypocritical...

Or just explain that their closed mind isn't worth your time to open....
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Old February 20, 2018, 06:37 PM   #38
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I really get incredibly tired of the incessant, never ending, unstated bias of Public Radio.

I’m paraphrasing here but when they are talking about the upcoming march on Washington they say thing like it ‘might get some progress made on this issue’ as though it’s obvious to everyone that more restrictions on guns is ‘progress’.

If you ever suggested to them allowing suppressors or doing away with ‘gun free zones’ or loosening the restrictions on concealed carry might be 'progress' I think they literally would not understand you, as though you were speaking Greek or you were a ‘flat earther’.

The phrase ‘common sense’ has been so perverted and twisted its definition has run away and is hiding out in some other part of the dictionary.

Also:

1. The ‘18 shootings this year’ has been refuted even in the Washington Post but I still hear it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.43f03e43d50a

2. The claim that gun rights folk want mentally ill people to have guns because they reversed a policy that EVEN THE ACLU considered unfair.

3. The idea that the NRA contributes so much money they ‘own’ many of the politicians in Washington D.C.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/16/nra-...ommentary.html

4. The idea that the NRA is a terrorist organization.

5. One of the local radio stations in the Twin Cities, FM107.1 had Julia, the host of the ‘Lori and Julia’ show say about the shooting: "It's just the saddest thing ever. I hope, I hope we can do something cause this young man had a machine gun---and um that's not right."

6. The call for students to bring ‘8 ounce canned food items’ to throw at school shooters as a possible solution:
Quote:
One Alabama middle school in 2015 sent letters home to parents asking them to send children the following day with “a canned food item” weighing eight ounces.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...on/1063337001/

7. The idea that we are all the poorer for the CDC not being able to lobby for gun control. (Note they still CAN do the research if they wanted to.

8. The idea that it should be okay to sue a gun manufacturer if someone uses their guns illegally and that legislation to prevent this type of silliness constitutes ‘bowing to special interests’.

It really does get tiring.
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Old February 20, 2018, 07:18 PM   #39
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If you really want to test and improve your argumentation skills and learn how to argue, try the exercise of taking your opponents’ position. If you’re pro gun, argue logically and reasonably for the gun control position. Not only will this exercise sharpen your skills, it might inform you that your natural opponent is not as weak or illogical as you think; after all, you must know your opponent to defeat your opponent.
We used to do that way back in college on the 70s - usually involved a keg of beer and we did it on topics like abortion (illegal in the South), and other political/emotional issues. It really DOES make you see their side and when you understand BOTH sides of the debate, you have a better chance of winning. Most would do well to join some of the Bloomberg/anti-gun sites and read/"listen" to what they are saying.
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Old February 20, 2018, 07:45 PM   #40
berettaprofessor
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But this month, I have quit the NRA. Enough of its
incessant no-limits self-serving blather and
those who echo it.
And this is how we lost suppressors, and shortened shotguns, and magazines greater than 10 rounds, and new market machine guns for those who qualify, and mail order guns......because of the "I'll compromise...just this once...they won't ask for more..." mentality.
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Old February 20, 2018, 08:11 PM   #41
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How do you combat anti-gun argument fatigue??
Don't fight battles you can't win. It is a waste of time and effort to try to convince many people. It is those undecided folks that have to be won over.

The subject came up today at lunch. Three ladies who are very much neutral, and have virtually no knowledge of firearms asked my opinion. I took the opportunity to explain facts about several questions.

One was curious that her daughters boyfriend had "built" his AR. She was under the impression that it was as simple as ordering all the parts and assembling a rifle.

They were also quite surprised when I explained that a 150 year old SXS shotgun loaded with #1 buck and a few reloads would have resulted in the same death toll, maybe more.
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Old February 20, 2018, 08:47 PM   #42
In The Ten Ring
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I no longer use Facebook and that was the only (anti) social media I have ever used, other than online forums. The only forums I've belonged to were on guns or cars. Most of those banned all political discourse.

I don't usually converse with Leftists on guns and the last time I did was in a doctor's office lobby and the lady (loose term for her) went bonkers, started yelling and using insults, and demanded I be removed. I stayed calm and had the backing of the clerk who carries a gun herself and hunts, and who heard part of Leftist's meltdown. *Every employee there hunts, has a CCW, and carries their guns to the office.

I always stay calm as I learned in high school debate that the first person to get angry is the first to lose the ability to think and will usually lose the debate. Facts work and since I've followed this topic since 1994 I am pretty well versed in the facts---legal, historical, statistical, and the ways guns work as I own a couple myself and have been shooting most of my life.

I enjoy the youtube comment section but today I had my life threatened there by a guy who strangely, threatened to shoot me while maintaining that no one should own guns. (The Left is a strange bird). Him I almost reported to the FBI but given they didn't do much when they actually had a guy's name I didn't expect much here. Google, to my shock, did delete his comments along with the entire thread. *I had reported his threat to Youtube.

I cannot recall many college debates on gun control but I recall one Indian fellow that said "I understand your position now and I agree with you." We had had a calm discussion in the dorm room.

Last edited by In The Ten Ring; February 20, 2018 at 08:57 PM.
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Old February 20, 2018, 08:57 PM   #43
Danoobie
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Take a noob shooting. Bring the 22LRs, show them a good time. You'll have a
shooter for life. Arguing with antis is shouting at the rain.
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Old February 20, 2018, 08:59 PM   #44
In The Ten Ring
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We don't take enough new people shooting.
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Old February 20, 2018, 09:20 PM   #45
simonz
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I'm a liberal with guns. I have several handguns, revolvers and semi-auto's, and a few rifles. I've had a many more in the past but I've downsized my collection.

I'm not looking for an argument here, just want solutions to stopping these endless, senseless mass shootings.

On both sides of this issue there are extreme positions, going from more guns to no guns. Let's be reasonable and find a middle ground.

Myself and others would like to hear real solutions from the conservative point of view of how to get us out worsening situation. Please post some suggestions for solutions to stop these mass shootings.
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Old February 20, 2018, 10:24 PM   #46
In The Ten Ring
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More guns "is an extreme position?"

What's a "reasonable position?" Harsh language?

Mass shooters are cowards by nature, they commit suicide or surrender the moment police show up. They do not target gun shows, gun stores, or police stations. No terrorists attacked Marine recruiting stations after armed citizens began doing armed security. You won't get within 100 feet of the private schools politicians send their kids without running into former Navy SEALS with their guns.

It's silly to think a teacher can carry concealed or carry openly off campus but suddenly becomes too dangerous to have that same right on campus. That is a selective hoplophobia that is getting people killed. The Left needs it though in order to advance their control agenda.

Today, a man threatened to kill me on social media, why? I disagreed with his demand to ban guns. The man who thinks guns should be illegal offered to use one to kill someone. If that doesn't show what his real goal is, nothing will (reported him to youtube and his threat was removed...I almost reported him to the FBI but they don't have a great track record on doing anything).

Another idea would be to recruit more reserve police officers. I actually sent that idea to Trump himself last weekend. In case no one knows, a reserve officer is like a volunteer fire fighter, trained by academy but doing police work for free. I entered such a program once in a large city but ended up moving away before getting very far along. Post a few volunteers in each school, that would avoid the "gun free zone" thing as police are exempt. Fund their training via the federal govt if needed. *If my parents weren't so bad off, I'd pay for my own academy training and do it myself.

The real solutions are harder though. Keep parents married. Make parents discipline their kids. Bring back the bible into schools. Religion is a proven regulator of behavior. Stop doping kids up to calm them down. Encourage sports participation.....strong bodies make for confident minds. Encourage the strong kids to protect the weak outcasts....make fighting in school a normal thing (it is normal) and stop punishing the victims of bullies for fighting back.

Guns were much more common and easier to get years back and there were no mass shootings. That in itself is proof guns are not the issue.
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Old February 21, 2018, 12:37 AM   #47
Kimio
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@simonz

The real problem is that the actual solutions will not come easy. No amount of legislation, be it pro or anti gun will solve the real problems plaguing the nation at this time. We are facing a multi-generation illness that has been festering for a very long time, and it will likely take just as many generations if not more to fix them.

What we have here are too many kids being raised in broken homes, impoverished, and left to the wilds where they more often than not fall victim to or become a part of the criminal element of the world. We have a system where kids are being drugged in order to suppress their emotions so that they’ll “behave and listen” like perfect little drones while in school. A generation of children (not all mind you) who were raised to believe that the world is owed to them and that they are special, and deserve everything and they deserve it right now. We have a generation where sex, drugs and violence is glorified. We have a society that tragically has lost the appreciation for the sanctity of life, and a generation of young men and women who have become so intolerant of opposing views that they will riot and destroy entire city blocks and/or obstruct traffic simply because someone has an opposing view.

There are so many more things that I can list, but I’d be here all night and still likely would never be able to list all the issues. All of these problems compound on top of each other, and no one thing will fix everything in one fell swoop. Banning firearms will not solve the real issues that plague society.

That being society itself is sick, so very, very sick. If we were to start somewhere, I would start looking at all the laws we currently have in the books and start by trimming down. Try and figure out, starting at the state level, what can and cannot be reasonably enforced with the current financing and manpower available to them. Look at historical data and try to determine if any real impact has been made to combat the criminal element of the population. If it has had little to no affect, then the law needs to go away or be reworked until it can somehow provide a more meaningful impact for what they are trying to accomplish. Next, actually follow through and enforce those laws.

These are complex issues which will require equally if not more complex solutions. However, there are so many out there that do not want to hear them. They want something right now, they don’t care what it is, and it doesn’t matter who it might burden, so long as we “do something” we can they say we did something and feel good temporarily for doing a thing. Even if that thing does absolutely squat to stop the next massacre and trust me, it will happen again sadly.

Evil people do not follow laws created to govern the masses. They follow their own laws, and will do whatever they wish until stopped by one method or another.

You cannot legislate morality, but you can try to mitigate the actions of those who have little to no sense of morality of their own.

Last edited by Kimio; February 21, 2018 at 01:14 AM.
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Old February 21, 2018, 01:03 AM   #48
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Stick to my principles and defend them vigorously.

Liberty is not for the faint of heart. Buck up, Sally.
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Old February 21, 2018, 01:50 AM   #49
LogicMan
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You just have to keep fighting. I actually have some pre-written posts saved to deal with anti-gun articles I see. I cut and paste sections to deal with particular fallacies. The issue for me isn't so much convincing the anti's as showing people who read the articles and don't comment, but who are on the fence about the issue, what the facts are.
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Old February 21, 2018, 01:55 AM   #50
LogicMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by In The Ten Ring
Today, a man threatened to kill me on social media, why? I disagreed with his demand to ban guns. The man who thinks guns should be illegal offered to use one to kill someone. If that doesn't show what his real goal is, nothing will (reported him to youtube and his threat was removed...I almost reported him to the FBI but they don't have a great track record on doing anything).
YEP, gotta love those ones. Had that happen to me too, was debating some leftist woman on her blog, and she got so furious, she said it was a good thing I wasn't there in person with her or I wouldn't leave alive. Dana Loesch was forced to move from her home because of death threats from anti-gunners.
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