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Old February 15, 2018, 12:19 PM   #26
OldMarksman
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I don't really believe you'll actually recognize a bad situation when it show's up.
You may not, but if you're lucky, you will.

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People act strange for a lot of different reason's, doesn't mean they are the bad guy.
Absolutely!

People like to talk about "situational awareness". They glance around, believing that they will recognize a "threat".

Here's one that might well have saved some victims, here and in other cities: you are walking alone minding your own business. You notice someone panning with a cell phone camera.

Strange? Maybe.

But if you are about to be suddenly and viciously attacked in a "knockout" game, that is your indication.

What to do? STOP immediately, turn, and put you back to the wall. Be ready to draw instantly.

Could be nothing. But what have you lost?
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Old February 15, 2018, 01:12 PM   #27
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I think the key is just to pay attention. Noticing things that might be indicators of danger is probably our best way of avoiding trouble. I have changed direction while walking/hiking and changed my mind about getting gasoline more than once in response to a situation or behavior that may have been perfectly innocent and I'm OK with that.

I have also not been paying attention and been reminded of my vulnerability. I was walking my little attack Chihuahua a while back late at night. I live in a small, poor rural community with few street lights, and there are a few dark spots along the way. I always wear a headlamp and carry a good light, but there are a few corners that require a little more attention to maintain enough distance from anyone, whether good or bad. I was not paying attention and one of my neighbors rounded one of those corners at the same time I did. He was literally less than five feet from me and closing fast before I knew he was there. Had he been an attacker, I would have been in trouble.

I don't think we should live in fear, but being aware of our surroundings is foundational to avoidance of trouble. That is more true at the gas and grab than most places.
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Old February 18, 2018, 05:00 PM   #28
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OldMarksman wrote:
Not likely if he is trying to make sure that he can stay in visual context with that someone, and even less likely if he appears panicky when he sees another shopper noticing him.
The arrogance with which you dismiss my post is quite telling.

You've obviously never had to wake up a neighbor to ask to borrow money for baby formula and instead he decides to go with you and buy it himself rather than giving it to you and risking that you might spend the money on something else.

Rather than denigrate the experience of those who were once poor, you might try giving thanks for your own financial blessings and realize the rest of us may not have been born with a silver spoon in their mouth.
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Old February 18, 2018, 05:43 PM   #29
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Lohman446 wrote:
(come on this is going to be funny, laugh with me)
It wasn't a laughing matter at the time. Read my response to Old Markman who had a similar degree of conceit as you.

Not all people who are on edge late at night or early in the morning at a convenience store who might be acting like they need to get out of there as soon as possible are there to rob it.

You should, frankly, be ashamed of your post.
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Old February 18, 2018, 10:16 PM   #30
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The arrogance with which you dismiss my post is quite telling.
Arrogance? Dismiss?

I expanded on the story by explaining why the signs should have been more alarming to me than they were.

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You've obviously never had to wake up a neighbor to ask to borrow money for baby formula and instead he decides to go with you and buy it himself rather than giving it to you and risking that you might spend the money on something else.
How would that influence whether someone might decide to park facing the wrong direction?

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Rather than denigrate the experience of those who were once poor, you might try giving thanks for your own financial blessings and realize the rest of us may not have been born with a silver spoon in their mouth.
You are making assumptions and assertions that are completely unjustified.

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Not all people who are on edge late at night or early in the morning at a convenience store who might be acting like they need to get out of there as soon as possible are there to rob it.
Of course not. Do you really want to play the odds when the stakes are high?

In the event, the indications turned out to signal a robbery about to happen. The prudent person will take such indications into account even if they might well turn out to be completely innocent.
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Old February 19, 2018, 09:15 AM   #31
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You should, frankly, be ashamed of your post.
Offended much there?

While my post was made with some sense of humor the entirety of your situation regarding infant formula was not made clear in your post and was not made clear until after that. Strangely, while I have lived paycheck to almost getting to the next paycheck and had children at the time, I have never run out of formula in the middle of the night. But hey, that's getting a bit off topic.

My post was intended to have some humor to it to at least touch on another situation. We have this habit of thinking that we somehow can tell the "good guy" from the "bad guy" It is likely, in many cases, we are simply identifying those who are not simply going about their day. Be it based on how they are parked, how aware of their surroundings, or other things. We must be careful that we don't allow our observations to create a situation that sets us on edge and gets out of hand.
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Old February 21, 2018, 09:30 PM   #32
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A situation happened to me in 1968 , just got back from VN l lived in the projects in NY . The 60's was a crazy time , when home I found home just as dangerous , I started carrying a Colt Combat Commander 45 . One summer night 2 o'clock in the morning on a busy street in the projects , sidewalk well lit , even being aware of my surroundings . I wasn't walking close to parked cars or in the shadows of the buildings . Dead center of the sidewalk , the bad guy still got the jump on me , he was right at my left side so close I couldn't see his arms. I had my hand on the handle of the gun , I pulled it out a stuck it to his forehead , he made a sound an left just as fast. Lucky or could have been unlucky . I carried with a round in the chamber hammer down . He didn't realize it but he had the upper hand. I don't know what he had . I was very lucky , to be honest I don't think I thought about cocking the hammer. And I just got back from a combat tour in VN , crazy times. Always good to be aware & prepare but you don't know how it will play out until it happens. All this time has passed an I still think I can go a few rounds.
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Old February 23, 2018, 12:33 AM   #33
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I've stepped in (or "stepped up" depending on your worldview) three times to help a stranger facing a robbery and/or violent attack. Twice women were under threat, the other was a police officer.

Things worked out very well each time, no shots were needed, the bad guys surrendered, stopped, or left. All I really had to expect in return was risk to my own life, job, finances, and freedom.

Say you hadn't of gone on in there. Say the guys were a robbery team and in the process killed or crippled the clerk. Would knowing you could have done something but didn't out of fear for your own safety and security bother you? Is that something that would keep you up at night?

There is a newly-retired police officer in Florida that gets to ponder that for whatever time he has left....except in his case he'll be hounded by the press, victims, and victim families for the rest of his days. In your case, I doubt anyone would remind you.

*******

On a more positive note, my uncle had a 1970 Camero with the biggest engine GM put into those cars back then, he had bought it new off the lot. He told me how he pulled into a gas station once for some beers and some hot girl came running out, jumped into the passenger seat, and yelled "HIT IT!"

He said he peeled out of there, blasted down the street, and in a couple of blocks she said "that'll do" and got out. That was all he ever saw of her. He said he's always wondered if she robbed the place and he ended up her defacto getaway driver.

Last edited by In The Ten Ring; February 23, 2018 at 12:56 AM.
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Old February 23, 2018, 02:58 PM   #34
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Say you hadn't of gone on in there. Say the guys were a robbery team and in the process killed or crippled the clerk. Would knowing you could have done something but didn't out of fear for your own safety and security bother you? Is that something that would keep you up at night?
No.

I knew the clerk, an I certainly would have been concerned, but I would not have blamed myself for not going in.

Now, had I seen all the signs, gone elsewhere , and not called 911, and had someone been injured, I would likely have thought about what I should have done for a very long time.
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Old February 23, 2018, 04:53 PM   #35
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I am a private citizen and not a law enforcement officer. The law enforcement officer has a sworn duty. I do not.

Every time I consider if I have a duty I remember that a good share of the population is opposed to privately armed citizens. Nope. No duty present
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Old February 23, 2018, 05:56 PM   #36
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I am a private citizen and not a law enforcement officer. The law enforcement officer has a sworn duty. I do not.
Exactly.

Moreover,the community will not come forward to help me after the event.
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Old February 23, 2018, 09:13 PM   #37
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I am a private citizen and not a law enforcement officer. The law enforcement officer has a sworn duty. I do not.

Every time I consider if I have a duty I remember that a good share of the population is opposed to privately armed citizens. Nope. No duty present


This is the mentality that criminals and tyrants both welcome. If and when you or someone you care about could have been helped but wasn't, the guy just passed them by, I hope you remember what you typed here.
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Old February 23, 2018, 09:18 PM   #38
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Those I care about are taught to defend themselves. My three and four year old may not be able to but even I make exception for children and those physically unable. If you (the hypothetical you) decided not to be prepared to defend yourself through some combination of equipment and training the choice is on you not me. I never gauranteed a safe society to anyone. Rob an able bodied adult in front of me = not my problem. Assault a frail elderly woman we are likely to have words that may escalate... I will come out on top.
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Old Yesterday, 12:17 AM   #39
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If and when you or someone you care about could have been helped but wasn't, the guy just passed them by, I hope you remember what you typed here.
If and when I or someone I care about is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, I will surely do what I can to defend me or them.
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Old Yesterday, 08:26 AM   #40
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Say you hadn't of gone on in there. Say the guys were a robbery team and in the process killed or crippled the clerk. Would knowing you could have done something but didn't out of fear for your own safety and security bother you? Is that something that would keep you up at night?
No. As others have stated we/I are not free lance LE because we have a CCWP.
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Old Yesterday, 01:13 PM   #41
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As I lay down to sleep last night I remembered these words and how applicable these are to this thread.

All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.
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Old Yesterday, 01:30 PM   #42
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As I lay down to sleep last night I remembered these words and how applicable these are to this thread.

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
I do not believe that they are applicable here at all.

It is a fundamental tenet of use of force law that civilians may use force, deadly or otherwise, only when it is immediately necessary (ie, as a last resort) to do to defend himself or herself against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm. The law provides for the use of force to defend others also, but the limitations are more stringent.

Inherent in this is the expectation that the user of such force had exercised prudence and has made every reasonable effort to avoid such a necessity in the first place place.

To equate a decision by a citizen to not walk into a robbery in progress with "good men doing nothing" is absurd.
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Old Yesterday, 01:42 PM   #43
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All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.
While this has proven to be true throughout history, I will remind you that evil is not stopped by good men doing something stupid. Having the mindset, training and awareness to respond appropriately to the situation at hand is my goal. It is very easy to be fearless and invincible on the interwebs, not nearly so much in real life.
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Old Yesterday, 02:15 PM   #44
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For around 6 months, I worked armed patrol, Fri/Sat/Sun, late shift. Gas Station, 5 minutes away from Viscaya. So midnight, or so, off for Coffees for me and the Gatehouse Guy.

Invariably, one girl in the Store at the gas station, this station was 50 yards from the I 4. So lots of just off the Hiway gas fill up's. Some not so nice people, an armed uniformed Security person, leaned up, having a chat, was a good thing, for calming down out of state visitors, and others.

Plus it got me out of driving in circles, for a while.

I normally back in, in parking lots, unless I am staying for a couple of hours. Cheaper to fix the back of a vehicle, than the front, then I drive in!
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Old Yesterday, 02:33 PM   #45
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I expect the vast majority of people view themselves as “good men”. Even the Nazis justified the actions of the third Reich.
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Old Yesterday, 04:16 PM   #46
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Don't ignore your instincts. If something seems strange, don't dismiss it.

This was driven home to me years ago. I thought someone was following me, but I dismissed it. Turned out they were following me--I had apparently angered them unintentionally (and without even realizing it) while driving and they followed me home. Fortunately the situation was resolved without violence.

You don't have to live your life on high alert all the time, your brain is wired to tell you when it senses something might be wrong. Most of the time all you have to do is to listen instead of trying to ignore your instincts.
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Old Yesterday, 04:41 PM   #47
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Don't ignore your instincts. If something seems strange, don't dismiss it.
That is exactly the point here.
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Old Today, 11:27 AM   #48
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All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.
Yeh right. Some of you may remember this. Young man and women enter a Walmart. The woman is a bit of distance behind the boy friend both carrying guns openly. Mr. John Q public (a CCWP holder) sees the boy friend enter the store and decides to leave the register and follow the boy friend. TOTALLY UNAWARE OF THE GIRL FRIEND pulls his concealed weapon and the girl friend shoots him and kills him of the spot from behind. Shall we say that this "good man" should have done nothing, or was he right in doing what he did. Which was get himself killed for nothing.
A book out there The Gift of Fear is an excellent read on the sixth sense.
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Old Today, 11:49 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Don P View Post
Shall we say that this "good man" should have done nothing, or was he right in doing what he did. Which was get himself killed for nothing.
How much of a "good guy" was he being in his actions?

In your example, it seems the debate would be more about knowledge vs. ignorance of the law(s), rather than good guy with gun vs. bad guy with gun.

Kind of a non sequitor, in my opinion.
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Old Today, 04:51 PM   #50
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Let's all agree that the average concealed carrier is not in law enforcement and should not take it upon themselves to act as such. A threat is not the same as an action. A person may threaten harm and never act upon said threat and a person may harm without threat or warning. Unfortunately, unless one is an officer of the law, the decision to harm or take a life is not a given. You may end up in the other category of criminal.
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