Extra Soft .45s

[uncle.45]

kmw,
I have owned different guns, but when it comes to what I own, shoot, and carry I now stick only to my favorites.
I only have Smith & Wesson revolvers and 1911s. All are .45acp.
Thus the user name uncle45.
I do occasionally shoot friends' guns just for giggles, but as I get older, I get seriously 'stuck in my ways'.
My revolvers shoot great on this load, and once I match the right recoil spring to it, my 1911s will run like 'butter on ice'.
I'm basically a happy camper.

[kmw1954]

uncle.45 no offense taken and am grateful for your time to read my post.

It's nice that you've found a love of your life. Other than my wife I'm still looking. As stated my experience with the 45acp is very limited in any platform. Though I do believe it will be my next caliber

My reference to the Witness was only to describe my experience and surprise at the performance of an out of the box stock pistol and how pleasant it was for me.

[uncle.45]

kmw,
I apologize if I sounded like I don't care about your experience or your input.
I appreciate and value the responses of everyone here.
Right now I am just focused on making one kind of pistol run with one particular load.
Thank you for taking the time to respond!

[kmw1954]

No problem here. Think I just misinterpreted the question. Best of luck in your quest.

Following along I am learning of the platforms. It's fun and keeps me out of trouble.

[uncle.45]

Finally!!
I finally get to go to the range tomorrow, and tune the recoil spring
in my 1911 so it will run on 4.0gr 'bunny fart' ammo.
I'll let you all know the results after I get home and have my 'cleaning party'.

[uncle.45]

Well, yesterday's range trip was a bust!
I went with a group of 10 from our Synagogue, and I spent most of the time either talking with other men on the Usher/Security team, or helping the women improve their gun handling and accuracy. I hardly got to shoot.
I actually had a really good time, but I didn't get any 'spring tuning' done on the 1911.
I am going to the range this afternoon by myself, and I will post the results tonight.

[Jim Watson]

The usual recoil spring for midrange (light target load) .45 ACP is 10 or 12 lbs.
No need to try to sneak up on it a pound at a time from hardball 16 lb.

My powderpuff .45s (and 9mm) have everything from 10 to 13 lb because that was what was on hand. They function well.

[uncle.45]

Thanks Jim!
I am going to run 1 or 2 magazines at 14# and work down as needed. I am sure I will end up at 10 to 12 pounds.

[uncle.45]

The range was brutal today!
I went by myself, and progressed from one spring to the next looking for the one my SW1911 would run on, but all I got was aggravated!
At or above 12# it would cycle the slide just enough to reset the trigger, but would not eject the spent case or strip the next round.
Below 12# it would eject well, but would not go fully back into battery to fire the next round.
Several of you said you run loads this light, but you used SWCs or LSWCs. Is there any reason why RNFPs shouldn't run as well or better? I have shot a case of Freedom Munitions 185gr FP ammo without one failure.
This pistol has fired 3,000 rounds of standard pressure and +P factory ammo without a single glitch. (Both RN and HP)
The COL is 1.177. Would a longer COL feed better?
Pile on guys. I need some input.

[Unclenick]

Some shapes feed better than others, and I've had one flat nose design my gun didn't like well, so that could be a factor. Magazine feed lip profile is a common offender, and a different magazine may cure the problem. You could also up the load to 4.2 grains. Most of my old loads were with Bullseye, which takes a couple tenths or so less than HP38 to reach a given peak pressure. A chronograph would probably tell you if that's the issue, if you have access to one.

[uncle.45]

Thanks Unclenick! That's good Intel.
I was wondering about profiles of different brands of the same bullet types being slightly different.
I might try some of the Xtreme bullets that Freedom Munitions uses since I know this pistol has run them successfully.
Since this load is SO soft I think I will also bump the charge up to 4.2gr as well.
Thanks again! I will post an update when I have results.

[Don P]

My ICORE loads, 230 grain coated lead bullet and 3.5 grains of Titegroup. Chrono the load at 590 FPS

[uncle.45]

The title says it all.
With the powder drop bumped up to 4.4gr and a 12# spring, there were FTEs.
With a 10# spring there were failures to go back into battery.
Both ways the gun would sometimes just lock up about 1/4" from being back in battery.
To make sure my 1911 wasn't experiencing some sort of failure, I put a 16# spring back in it, and ran some factory 230gr FMJRN ammo.
It ran like a Swiss watch as it always has.
I think I will try ONE more increase in powder charge. If it doesn't run like I want it to on 5.0gr I am going to use the rest of the 185gr RNFP bullets in my revolver, then work up a load with FMJRNs that I can use in both guns.
I will let you know know how it goes!

[mattL46]

I don't have my notes in front of me right now bit I've been working on a light load for sometime. It seems as if you gain one perk and lose another. I want to say my load is a 230gn round nose with about 5gns of universal. (Def not the best powder for this, I just have an excess of it and am determined to use it) my reason for the light load is for brass collection. It cycles my pistol flawlessly and drops the brass right at my feet, but there is a small amount of unburned powder. I've been tweaking on it here and there and left it last year. I'll probably revisit it this winter when I have the most time to load and experiment! Good luck!

[uncle.45]

I finally had a good range outing today!
I decided to tell the Wife that you can't make a 1911 run on bunny farts, and I loaded 300 rounds at my original soft load of 5.2grains. I switched to a 14# spring, and she ran like a 1911 should. 100%! 300 out of 300 cycled properly, and it shot pretty soft to boot!
My only complaint is how DIRTY it is!
I am going to increase the powder drop to 5.5gr in the next batch to see if it 'cleans up' some. Any input?

This is an obscure TV reference, but a few of you will get it---
"Why, if I was any happier I would need a book"!!
Dan Conner

[uncle.45]

I recently started using a load I like, but would enjoy it a lot more if it wasn't the DIRTIEST thing I ever shot!
I am using---
5.2gr HP38
185gr Berry's FN
CCI large primers
X-Treme and Magtech (CBC) brass
1.174 COL
0.4715- 0.472 'crimp'
What say you?
Would 5.5 run any cleaner?
The additional recoil should be minimal.
'preesh8 some input from those of you that use Win231
or HP38!

[m&p45acp10+1]

If you are running a .45 ACP The lighter bullet, and the low charge weight could be it. Hodgdon lists a max load of 5.9 grains so I would bump it up to 5.5 to 5.7 Grains. Lighter bullets tend to run sooty at low pressure.

[m&p45acp10+1]

If you can find a can of Trail Boss I would advise giving it a try. I had good results for light target loads that would cycle the action on my .45 ACP guns while being the cleanest burning powder for target pistol loads there is. No other powder will burn cleaner at low pressure. None.

[ammo.crafter]

That's a low powder load you're using.

Do you know what the BHN of your bullet happens to be?

[Unclenick]

Uncle.45,

I have merged your two threads as they are really connected and you can see already the from the above comment that having it separate disconnected the discussion from fact you are trying to get a light load to work.


A few thoughts on both topics:

One is that the RNFP shape is a CAS load shape and has a shorter bearing surface than the 185 grain SWC's we used to shoot in matches. This means it doesn't seat as deeply, leaving more room under the bullet and that extra volume will lower the pressure, make ignition a little slower and on both accounts will contribute to a little more fouling being present. I've always used a shape more like the 185 grain SWC on the Dardas site. He gives TFL members a 5% discount, IIRC, so it might be one to try. Missouri Bullets has the same shape listed at .45 Button and has a coated version if you prefer that, but no discount.

Any time a spherical powder seems to fail to burn well, try a magnum primer. The larger shower of sparks helps them get burning. CCI reformulated their magnum primers in 1989 specifically to improve the ignition of the St. Marks ball powder formulations, of which OBP231 (sold in canister grade as HP38 and 231) is one.

Another way to improve start pressure is to get the bullet into contact with the lands before the case mouth reaches the end of the chamber. This is called headspacing on the bullet. It increases accuracy both by improving ignition consistency and by aligning the bullet with the bore, and it also reduces leading because of that better alignment. The main limitation is that some bullets seated out that far no longer feed from the magazine properly. Also, seating out that far might leave your particular bullet short of enough seating depth to feed without tipping the bullet. You'd have to try it out to see. It is done as shown third from the left, below. You use the barrel as a gauge to set your seating depth so a round dropped into the chamber has its head face flush with the barrel extension (hood).



Beyond that, while the gun functions well with full power ammunition, it may need some slicking up to work with lighter loads. Since I can't inspect it, I can't say, but a gunsmith might recommend a reliability package in which he may radius and polish the feed ramp, break corners on the locking lugs, and so on to improve overall feed and function, and possibly lap it lightly in places. Stainless steels can be grabby compared to plain and carbon steels. This is the reason early stainless guns were often faulted for galling. The alloys now used are generally better, but not as easily made slick at plain and carbon steels.

That said, there are lubricants you can get that are permanent or semi-permanent that may help. One of these could be applied to barrel locking lugs and link lugs, to the slide and the disconnector, to the frame rails, to the firing pin stop, etc. These parts can affect either unlocking or locking. Sprinco Plate+ Silver has worked well for me. Shooter's Solutions MolyFusion makes an even more obvious difference, turning the metal surface almost waxy feeling, but it has a tiny thickness to it (half a thousandth, IIRC) and is more expensive to buy into, so I think it would be my second choice for tight fitting parts.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Only W-231. Old stock. Has always been a clean burning powder for me. Than again everything powder measured on my bench is close to Max or beyond. I don't think I ever beam scaled frugal bottom line loads in my time. But, To each their own.

[uncle.45]

Thanks Unclenick!
Since I am not recoil-shy like the wife, I decided I don't care about loading extra low any more.
I would like for the loads I make for my 1911 to run cleaner than this mess, though.
Right now I have 8# of HP38 and 2,000 rnfp 185gr bullets I want to use up before exploring other loads. The bullets won't last long, so when they are about gone I will look at some SWCs.
BTW- I recently purchased 1,000 Federal large pistol primers, but was mistakenly sent Federal large magnum rifle primers.
When I notified Natchez they sent the right primers, and didn't ask for the rifle primers back.
Is it possible to safely use these? My 1911 has a 23# hammer spring. Hopefully it would ignite them, but I want to stay safe of course.

[uncle.45]

I looked at the Dardas site. That may be a good next bullet for me. My interest is only for punching paper. I have plenty of well-tested SD ammo.
What is considered to be target velocities?
Anything less than 700fps or something else?

[kmw1954]

uncle.45, I just finished up my first pound of HP-38 and like it very much in my 9mm, my 380acp doesn't like it at all. I will continue to use it for my 9mm as for me it is clean and economical.

Was with a friend was week to the range and he brought his 44 lever carbine along and let me shoot it. At first he had his regular full power handloads that he also uses in his revolver and that was a lot of fun with a pretty good kick. He then brought out a load that he uses in cowboy action and it turned that lever Marlin 44 into what felt like a 22 mag. What a difference.

He did tell me what the load was and what powder he used but I truly do not remember. I was truly amazed that the rifle could be turned into such a soft shooter.

[Unclenick]

Uncle.45,

Unlike small rifle and small pistol primers, which are the same size, large rifle primers are taller than large pistol primers, so they won't seat properly into large pistol primer pockets. They also make too much gas, and if you could make them fit and fire, they would tend to unseat the bullets ahead of the powder gas doing it, which leads to erratic muzzle velocities.