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Old October 30, 2017, 06:47 AM   #51
Brit
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When you read how this Jeweler went through his guns all over the place stage, to a Hi-Cap 9mm pistol, in a holster, on his person?

You can shortcut this process, go Glock 19, in a holster, and a spare magazine, preferably a G17 magazine, why not.

The Gen 4 Glock 19 I carry, I have shot thousands of rounds through, in IDPA Matches. It works first time, all the time.

It is easy to carry, and the 16 round capacity is what it is. I could care less what people say about 5 or 6 round capacity is enough!

A 9mm 147g hollow point, into the dead centre of the heart of an attacker is a most likely kill shot. But medical opinions of 15 seconds before the brain runs out of blood, and oxygen leaves you possibly with a big problem!

So having the ability to fire 4 or more rounds, is a good thing.
And still have 8 under your striker, ready to fire elsewhere, a good thing.

And comments on not needing more than 6, or 8? Who gave that stupid comment?
Your gunfight will be what it is, if you have one. I shoot my G19 really well, best of any other pistols I own. So that is the reason I carry it. It has a 16 round capacity. Reason # 2! And a spare 17 round magazine? Why, why not.
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Old October 30, 2017, 03:35 PM   #52
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When people start trying to split hairs regarding handgun ammunition capacity (or calibers), I sometimes wonder if they actually consider some particular magazine capacity (or caliber) as somehow qualifying to make then "well armed".

It's still just a handgun. It's not a shotgun or a rifle.

I've said it before (maybe even in this thread?), but I'll say it again ...

Even back when I was carrying duty weapons chambered in .357 MAG, 9, .40 & .45, with capacities ranging from 6-16rds before reloading would be needed, I didn't really consider myself "well armed". Just armed.

From my perspective, I started to feel "well armed" when I got the 870 12GA out of the marked or unmarked car.

We often discuss and promote one opinion over some other when it comes to the supposed attributes of different handguns, but the simple reality is that we're still just talking about a handgun.

In other words, pontificating upon the vagaries of handgun capacity and caliber is just another way to try and ignore (pretend?) that we're still limited to just a handgun, and that means we're hoping it might prove to be "adequate", should we be forced to ever use it.

If more handgun capacity (or a bigger caliber) makes someone feel like they're "better armed" than someone else carrying a handgun with less capacity, hopefully their "confidence" doesn't turn out to be misplaced.

Now, knowledge, training, practice, skillset and experience? Those things don't come in a box (or a magazine or cylinder), and they're harder to easily "quantify" ... but they might be more important than either ammunition capacity or handgun caliber. (Luck helps, too, but never count on it.)
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Old October 30, 2017, 09:15 PM   #53
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Fastbolt.

As a non-working LEO, I am relegated to a self-defence pistol, concealed.
And I feel there are going to be bad things happening in the good old USA, it is bubbling up!

So a good pistol is as good as it can get. But an AK47, in the rear of my vehicle, is just in case? And it never gets parked in the street, lives in the garage.

What makes me feel this? We have thousands of legal, and illegal immigrants from Countries who hate America, and Americans! Living here, with access to means of communicating electronically, to anywhere on this planet! To anyone. If France can obtain full Auto AK47s, and issue them illegally to Islamists?
Weapons that are forbidden in France. We have much easier access too.
Semi-auto models used by well-trained people are good enough.

We have the best armed, and trained Police Officers, in the world. And they are mobile, at all hours of the day and night. Which is a curtain around us, but a coordinated attack, striking at an exact time? Could this happen?
Maybe. Am I paranoid? Probably.
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Old October 30, 2017, 10:01 PM   #54
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OhioGuy wrote:
Does anyone know of any documented cases of a civilian (CCW in particular) needing to fire a "high" number of rounds in a defensive encounter?
Not off the top of my head.

But, since you have asked the question, why don't you do us all the favor of doing the research necessary to answer it? You are unlikely to find it in government or special interest group statistics, but a search of newspaper and broadcast news stories of such shootings would be sensational enough to justify media coverage and could be found by a through review of Google or Yahoo search results.

Are there situations in which someone had to fire more than about 10 or 12 rounds in a self-defense situation. Yes. I lived through one in southern Florida in the early 1970's. I not one of the shooters, just observed it from a distance after my own self-defense encounter. That one has probably not been digitized by the newspapers that covered it, but there are certainly others.
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Old October 31, 2017, 12:27 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Brit View Post
Fastbolt.

As a non-working LEO, I am relegated to a self-defence pistol, concealed.
And I feel there are going to be bad things happening in the good old USA, it is bubbling up!

So a good pistol is as good as it can get. But an AK47, in the rear of my vehicle, is just in case? And it never gets parked in the street, lives in the garage.

What makes me feel this? We have thousands of legal, and illegal immigrants from Countries who hate America, and Americans! Living here, with access to means of communicating electronically, to anywhere on this planet! To anyone. If France can obtain full Auto AK47s, and issue them illegally to Islamists?
Weapons that are forbidden in France. We have much easier access too.
Semi-auto models used by well-trained people are good enough.

We have the best armed, and trained Police Officers, in the world. And they are mobile, at all hours of the day and night. Which is a curtain around us, but a coordinated attack, striking at an exact time? Could this happen?
Maybe. Am I paranoid? Probably.
Brit.

I can understand your concerns. These times remind me of the late 60's and early 70's, but aside from the re-emerging racial militants and anti-government protestors, now we have the anger of a number of unlawful immigrants, a greater presence of the Mexican cartels in our states and the spillover of Islamist terrorists from elsewhere in the world ... and, as you pointed out, better personal communications for good or ill use.

Not only being retired, but also no longer desiring to serve in a full-time reserve capacity, I'm also a private citizen, again. No, I don't drive around with a rifle or shotgun in my vehicles (even to the extent allowable to a private citizen in my state, or the states I regularly visit by car).

Yes, in our part of the world it wouldn't be that difficult for full-auto weapons (or other military equipment) to be smuggled into our southern border, but it neither keeps me up at night, makes me wish to fortify my property or makes me wish to remain at home.

As the recent multiple murders at the music concert in Las Vegas tragically illustrates, there are just so many opportunities for even a deranged lone individual to wreak havoc in our society. However, as has long been said, with great freedom in a society, comes great exposure to risk. We can't make everywhere as safe as we might wish. It's not a safe world.

I'd not think to call you paranoid, anymore than I'd think to call some people, who seem to completely ignore any potential threats, naive. Our concerns and expectations are possibly going to be different than whatever actual problems may come our way, as we can't know what any group of criminals, nuts or terrorists may decide to do on any given day. We can prepare to a reasonable degree, of course, but our expectations may not be what others have planned.
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Old October 31, 2017, 01:42 PM   #56
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Maybe. Am I paranoid? Probably.
Not with the crime rate in the greater Orlando Metromess..........that said, you get away from "The Attractions", Apopka, and all of the other crime areas, and the rest of central Florida is actually pretty nice - and safe.
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Old October 31, 2017, 02:31 PM   #57
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Wait where is a private citizen legally defending themselves in a 50 yard shootout?
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Old October 31, 2017, 03:51 PM   #58
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Does anyone know of any documented cases of a civilian (CCW in particular) needing to fire a "high" number of rounds in a defensive encounter?
Needing to fire? Dunno. I have no doubt some citizens have fired a bunch of rounds in a defensive situation (cops are on record of firing over a hundred in some.... with no hits.)

Here are some...

http://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendme...citizens-2016/

http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...to-save-lives/

http://www.guns.com/2017/03/17/cell-...ttacker-video/

http://www.wesh.com/article/cocoa-st...-times/4446857

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._shoots_b.html

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/...suspected.html

Most have citizens shooting the bad guy 'multiple times'.

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Old October 31, 2017, 03:52 PM   #59
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Wait where is a private citizen legally defending themselves in a 50 yard shootout?
A 66 Year Old Texan Vic Stacey Puts Four 357 Magnum Pistol Rounds into a Killer Rifleman at 165 Yards

https://www.veteranstodayarchives.co...zing-shooting/

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Old October 31, 2017, 04:25 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
A 66 Year Old Texan Vic Stacey Puts Four 357 Magnum Pistol Rounds into a Killer Rifleman at 165 Yards

https://www.veteranstodayarchives.co...zing-shooting/

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That is an interesting and unique situation. I'd proffer even in Texas, unless you are actively supporting the police, your chances of not going to prison for shooting someone at 50 yards is insignificant.
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Old October 31, 2017, 04:41 PM   #61
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That is an interesting and unique situation. I'd proffer even in Texas, unless you are actively supporting the police, your chances of not going to prison for shooting someone at 50 yards is insignificant.
Back in 1966 a nutjob in Austin Texas shot up the UT Campus and other things from the UT Tower. Many citizens with deer rifles fired back at him.

If someone is shooting at people at a distance I 'proffer' those that try to stop the nutjobs won't go to prison in such places as Texas.

https://timeline.com/during-the-nati...k-43bc18a3ddc3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gQnqxBYdng

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Old October 31, 2017, 04:42 PM   #62
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That will depend on the presentation of the situation and the threat. Where I used to work, our long corridor in a building full of kids was 100 yards roughly. I measured it. So if I see a shooter come out of a classroom at the end of the corridor and I am at the other end, am I not justified in taking the shot?

Recall the AF officer who took down a rampage shooter at 75 yards with his Beretta.

The folks with rifles who pinned down Charles Whitman in the UT tower in Austin were firing at great distance. They are credited with stopping further causalities.

Gun folks want decision rules that yield 0,1 outcomes. There is math that will generate such (if you can get the info for the equations). However, those predictions come with with a probability they will be correct.

So the bottom line is to carry a J frame with 5 and think everyone with more is stupid. Or carry two extra 15 mags and think those who just carry five are stupid. Take your pick.

I'm in the more ammo camp as Brit says and others, I prefer to carry a semi and extra ammo in most circumstances. Will some lead me to my J frame - yep, so I do then.
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Old October 31, 2017, 06:03 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
Back in 1966 a nutjob in Austin Texas shot up the UT Campus and other things from the UT Tower. Many citizens with deer rifles fired back at him.

If someone is shooting at people at a distance I 'proffer' those that try to stop the nutjobs won't go to prison in such places as Texas.

https://timeline.com/during-the-nati...k-43bc18a3ddc3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gQnqxBYdng

Deaf
But not people with pistols. Your example doesn't work.
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Old October 31, 2017, 06:35 PM   #64
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That is an interesting and unique situation. I'd proffer even in Texas, unless you are actively supporting the police, your chances of not going to prison for shooting someone at 50 yards is insignificant.
While distance can be a factor in justifying deadly force, it is by no means either an automatic justification for close assailants, nor an automatic disqualification for distant opponents. It is just one factor of many that could play into determining justification.

If the circumstances of the situation are such that deadly force is justified (let's say an active shooter, or an assailant who is firing on the defender from a distance), then the fact that the attacker is 50 yards (or more) away won't eliminate that justification.

Obviously, longer distances will neutralize a contact weapon, if the only person in jeopardy is the defender--but not if the attacker is endangering another innocent who is closer than the defender. Similarly, longer distances might make escape much easier, or it may have little effect, depending on the circumstances.
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But not people with pistols. Your example doesn't work.
I am not aware of any laws that have different justification levels based on the type of firearm used. If the circumstances justify the use of deadly force, then it doesn't matter if you use a rifle, a shotgun or a pistol. Likewise, if the circumstances don't justify the shooting then it won't matter what type of gun is used.

In the days of the UT shooting, the legality of carrying a pistol in TX was questionable, at best, however it was quite common to see deer rifles in pickup truck gunracks. A perfectly legal practice. The reasons rifles were used against the UT shooter were: 1. That's what people had. 2. That's what worked well. If they had used pistols to fire back that wouldn't have affected their justification, just their effectiveness.
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Old October 31, 2017, 08:40 PM   #65
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But not people with pistols. Your example doesn't work.
Don't matter if its pistols or rifles or slingshots. Deadly force is deadly force. There are plenty of examples of people being able to shoot well past 100 yards with pistols. Thus pistols can be used for self defense at longer range.

And with Texas Stand-Your-Ground laws you don't have to retreat.

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Old October 31, 2017, 09:48 PM   #66
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It matters to the topic. You have no duty to retreat but it will strain a jury's belief that you had a reasonable fear at 50 yards with a pistol.
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Old October 31, 2017, 10:05 PM   #67
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...it will strain a jury's belief that you had a reasonable fear at 50 yards with a pistol.
An attacker shooting at a person from 50 yards away with any decent firearm would cause a reasonable person to be in fear of serious bodily injury or death. I've seen a couple of persons make first round hits on bowling pins at 50 yards using pistols. I've seen people who can make consistent hits on human sized steel silhouette targets at 100 yards using a pistol.

Firearms can be deadly out to a mile or more under the worst case scenario. If the defender can't escape, it would be reasonable to return fire with whatever firearm the defender had to hand, as long as it doesn't endanger innocent life.

In addition, if the defender is defending an innocent third party the defender's distance from the attacker wouldn't be relevant as long as the defender reasonably believes that the third party is in danger of serious bodily injury or death. This is the general type of justification used for the actions of police snipers who fire to save an innocent life even though they are far enough from the attacker to be out of danger themselves.
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Old November 1, 2017, 07:36 AM   #68
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That is an interesting and unique situation. I'd proffer even in Texas, unless you are actively supporting the police, your chances of not going to prison for shooting someone at 50 yards is insignificant.
That depends on the totality of the circumstances.
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Old November 1, 2017, 07:39 AM   #69
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It matters to the topic. You have no duty to retreat but it will strain a jury's belief that you had a reasonable fear at 50 yards with a pistol.
The only scenario that your case will see a jury is if you are indicted for a crime. Can you articulate the need? I can shoot a pretty good group @ 50 yards with a pistol, not as good as I once could but certainly good enough.
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Old November 1, 2017, 07:44 AM   #70
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The only scenario that your case will see a jury is if you are indicted for a crime. Can you articulate the need? I can shoot a pretty good group @ 50 yards with a pistol, not as good as I once could but certainly good enough.
What scenario involves you shooting across a Walmart at someone? The topic is for CC. With the exception of deep rural, arguing you saw someone at 50 yards and shot them, your defense attorney is going to need a whole lot of money.
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Old November 1, 2017, 08:13 AM   #71
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With the exception of deep rural, arguing you saw someone at 50 yards and shot them, your defense attorney is going to need a whole lot of money.
It would be very prudent to engage the services of an attorney after any use of force incident.

And do read post #67.
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Old November 1, 2017, 09:53 AM   #72
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I think I laid out a building scenario of zero to 100 yards in a hallway in a place where a rampage shooting is not an unlikely target.

The distance is not a determinant of the legal justification. It is the need to prevent grievous bodily harm.
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Old November 1, 2017, 10:11 AM   #73
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The distance is not a determinant of the legal justification. It is the need to prevent grievous bodily harm.
Right.

When the threat involves a contact weapon, the distance is an issue as it relates to the A,O, J triad and the question of imminence.

It would have no such import in a case involving an attack with firearm, or the arson of an occupied structure.
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Old November 1, 2017, 10:32 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman View Post
It would be very prudent to engage the services of an attorney after any use of force incident.

And do read post #67.
We will have to agree to disagree on the ability to successfully assert a self defense claim in a non rural environment.

Edit: to the topic, as we started the CHL adventure due to a potential stalker hopped up on Vicodin, we were advised to carry large capacity firearm with spare mags. The view was, be prepared to empty the pistol as fast as possible, empty the mag, and even beat them with the gun while attempting to get away.

While that has changed I found the spare mags is a nice balance on the belt. Remember a good gun belt is worth almost as much as the cc as it helps insure it will be comfortable enough to carry.

Last edited by zincwarrior; November 1, 2017 at 11:03 AM.
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Old November 1, 2017, 11:32 AM   #75
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We will have to agree to disagree on the ability to successfully assert a self defense claim in a non rural environment.
A defense of justification for one of the kinds of use of force incidents described in Post #67 would not involve a self defense claim.

Also, just what is it that you believe would distinguished a claim of justification involving a rural environment from one involving a "non rural" environment?
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