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Old September 20, 2017, 05:31 PM   #1
Deaf Smith
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Starbucks Robbery... might sue

30 year old guy with gun robs Starbucks. 58 year old man locks horns with him and after a knock-down-drag-out-fight gets the robbers knife (the gun turned out to be fake) and stabs the robber 'apparently' 17 times.

Dunno of the stabs were all serious or some superficial or what, but anyway Ryan Flores, the robber, was stabbed repeatedly.

So he is 'thinking' about suing. Police Chief has laughed at the suit but still the would-be robber's mother says he is 'thinking' about it. Excessive force.

Real good look of the fight on surveillance vid.

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/...n-12213420.php

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Old September 20, 2017, 05:52 PM   #2
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I was surprised nobody else stepped in to help.

I wonder if Starbucks has commented on this.
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Old September 20, 2017, 07:15 PM   #3
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It seems the good Samaritan got stabbed in the neck before he was able to take the knife away. That could have been really bad.

I hope that even in a place like San Francisco, Flores will go to prison for a long time and his lawsuit will go nowhere.
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Old September 20, 2017, 07:28 PM   #4
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Right or wrong, the good guy in this situation can end up being duped out of everything he owns....especially in California. Unfortunately he will still end up paying lots of money for lawyers if the injured guy wants to sue him. Win or lose the case....the guy will still have to pay out a lot of money.
It's unfortunate but that's how it all works...
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Old September 20, 2017, 09:45 PM   #5
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Maybe a good lawyer in California who believes in self defense will work pro bono for the good guy if push comes to shove in court.

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Old September 21, 2017, 07:52 AM   #6
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I wish the guy good luck finding that sympathetic lawyer in California.
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Old September 21, 2017, 08:34 AM   #7
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All we have right now is a vid clip,and a statement from the robber's mommy.
Oh,and some laughter from the LEO's.
From that,some media came up with a story.

I'm not ready to do a whole lot of imaginating over it.

It would have been a clean shoot if the clerk at the counter gave him a charge of 00 buck center chest when he first presented the knife and gun,toy or not.

But it becomes a problem if the bad guy is down ,no longer a threat,and you hit him again with the 00 buck..

Kudos to our Good Samaritan for stepping up. Getting stuck in the neck certainly could fire up the fight or flight juices.I am certainly sympathetic to the Good Samaritan.

The table in the way blocks the view,but if the gun was established as a hoax/toy (I don't know) ....try and follow a fine point here,if the Good Sam was stabbing the bad guy with the knife...the bad guy no longer had control of the knife.So the threat was greatly reduced.
Each stab by the good guy rendered the bad guy less of a threat.

I have no sympathy for the bad guy. My sense of justice says one thing,but my amateur,uneducated lay understanding of self defense law says the Good Sam may,unfortunately,have a problem.

If the fight went out of the bad guy at the 12th stab wound,the next 5 stab wounds may take some explaining.

In defense of the Good Sam,if he knows his neck is stabbed ,he may be concerned about going down himself. In that case? I don't know. Do you make sure the bad guy does not recover? Reasonable question.

Last edited by HiBC; September 21, 2017 at 08:43 AM.
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Old September 21, 2017, 09:01 AM   #8
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If the fight went out of the bad guy at the 12th stab wound,the next 5 stab wounds may take some explaining.
Therein lies the problem.

In every knife use demonstration by Michael Janich that I have seen on television, Michael has gone to great length to show how to use the blade for slashing key tendons, to render the attacker immediately incapable of continuing the attack.

I do not recall ever seeing him demonstrate stabbing, and it is my recollection that he cautions against it.

One reason for that may well have to do with effecting an immediate stop.

Another may well have to do with the difficulty of determining how much damage would really be required, and therefore how much would be justifiable.
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Old September 21, 2017, 09:49 AM   #9
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Old Stony wrote:
...the good guy in this situation ... out of everything he owns....especially in California.
There's really no "especially in California" about it.

Even in self-defense loving Texas where as a "good samaritan" like this you could expect the grand jury to "no bill" you and perhaps actually get praised by the police and community, but you would also expect to be on the receiving end of a civil lawsuit for injuring the assailant in the course of defending your life or the life of others against him.

Quote:
...he will still end up paying lots of money for lawyers if the injured guy wants to sue him. Win or lose the case....the guy will still have to pay out a lot of money.
You are correct.

Even in states that have laws preventing someone whose shooting/stabbing is judged to be justified from suing the person who used the justifiable force, those laws generally only apply where the shooting/stabbing was ruled to be justified and to get such a ruling means you had to have been tried in a criminal court and your actions found to be justified. But, if it was merely a case of the prosecutor deciding not to file charges you don't necessarily get such immunity.
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Old September 21, 2017, 10:05 AM   #10
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In knife use we teach "timers" and "switches". The former will cause effect but will take time to do so, bleeding out is an example. The latter cause IMMEDIATE effect, cut tendons are good examples of this.

Mike does a GREAT job teaching effective targeting of the blade to cause the desired effect

The problem is most people in the USA dont have ANY blade training at all. Everyone has a knife clipped to their pocket.... very few know anything about its use (other then opening boxes)
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Old September 21, 2017, 10:27 AM   #11
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Just a point about use of force. We see stories like this on the evening news or in the morning paper with some regularity.
So and so (S&S) shot Bag Guy (BG) who was trying to kill him. The police are investigating but are not expected to file charges.
And the news cuts to a commercial or we flip over to the sports page and as far as we are concerned the matter is closed, justice triumphed and everything is good in this small part of an otherwise insane world.

Except that it's not over.

Once S&S gets released from the hospital he gets a call from the detectives assigned to investigate the shooting. Now S&S, if he has a brain, is going to get a lawyer to accompany him to that interview. And S&S wants as much justice as he can afford, so he gets an "A" list criminal defense attorney and gives him a retainer of $5,000.

Oh, wait, S&S doesn't have $5,000 to retain a good attorney. Seems he didn't pay any attention to Dave Ramsey or Suze Ormon when they said everyone needs an emergency fund for exactly this sort of event? So, S&S has to borrow up $3,000 from a friend to retain some "B" list talent.

S&S has to meet with the attorney to go over what happened so he/she can tell him what to say and not say. The billing clock is now ticking. S&S goes to the police interview with his attorney. The billing clock is still ticking. The interview goes well. The police say they are going to recommend no charges. 30 days later, S&S's attorney sends him a check for the balance of his retainer; $1,200.

Three months later, as he is walking to his car, S&S is met my a process server who hands him notice that he is being sued by BG for pain and suffering. The shooting didn't go to trial so the state's civil immunity statute doesn't apply because there was no ruling as to whether S&S's actions were justified.

S&S now has to retain a civil defense attorney. Another $3,000 retainer. Fortunately S&S has generous friends. S&S has to take off work to meet with the attorneys to prepare his defense. S&S has to take off work to attend the first hearing. And for the sake of simplicity we'll assume that the civil suit is dismissed while the court is hearing motions. 30 days later, S&S's attorney sends him a check for the balance of his retainer; $900.

So here S&S is. Months after the shooting, the lawsuits are finally over and although he prevailed at ever step, S&S's wallet is now $3,900 lighter, he's lost numerous days from work and had to live for months with the stress of potentially losing much of what he owns. That was the cost of a "good shoot".

This is a simplified version of what the aftermath of the use of deadly force can look like. Mercifully, I got to watch it from the sidelines rather than having to live it. Still, I paid close attention to it. Who do you think gave S&S the money for the attorneys?
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Old September 21, 2017, 10:31 AM   #12
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Quote:
Sharkbite wrote:
The problem is most people in the USA dont have ANY blade training at all. Everyone has a knife clipped to their pocket.... very few know anything about its use (other then opening boxes)
I'm one of them.
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Old September 21, 2017, 10:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Even in states that have laws preventing someone whose shooting/stabbing is judged to be justified from suing the person who used the justifiable force, those laws generally only apply where the shooting/stabbing was ruled to be justified...
True.

Quote:
...and to get such a ruling means you had to have been tried in a criminal court and your actions found to be justified.
Not really. Whether the case ever goes to a criminal court is is not relevant, nor would be the outcome of any such atrial.

In most states with an "immunity from civil liability" statute, the defendant, once suit has been filed, must present evidence to the judge in a civil court that the immunity provision applies. Preponderance of the evidence standard.
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Old September 21, 2017, 12:36 PM   #14
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I'm cool with getting training and having skills.No problem.

It seems so much about the court process is the theatre of playing the jury's emotions....

So,how does it work in court when it comes out you took a class on cutting tendons and stabbing....??

I can just hear the jury talking that one over.
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Old September 21, 2017, 12:53 PM   #15
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So,how does it work in court when it comes out you took a class on cutting tendons and stabbing....??
You mean in cutting tendons and not stabbing.

That's where your expert witness comes in.

It is also where the fact of your having taken the course works in your favor. Part of the relevant evidence will revolve around showing what you knew at the time.
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Old September 21, 2017, 03:42 PM   #16
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So,how does it work in court when it comes out you took a class on cutting tendons and stabbing....??

I can just hear the jury talking that one over.
So its better to not train with defensive tools, so as to make the follow on court battle easier?? I dont see the logic in that.
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Old September 21, 2017, 04:41 PM   #17
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I'm cool with getting training and having skills.No problem.
Did you notice that part before you jumped to a conclusion that had nothing to do with what I said? No,I did not say it was better to not train. Not even once.

I pondered what discussion a jury might have about it.

The two thoughts are not one and the same.Whether or not its "better" its still something you may have to deal with.

In this case,our good guy brought no knife,he brought no gun. He was just a guy who was there.He took the bad guy's knife from him.

Last edited by HiBC; September 21, 2017 at 04:54 PM.
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Old September 21, 2017, 05:49 PM   #18
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Not to side track ;but how many of us 58+ folks would get into a knock down drag out episode with a presumably well armed criminal for Star Bucks unless directly threatened?
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Old September 21, 2017, 07:28 PM   #19
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Not to side track ;but how many of us 58+ folks would get into a knock down drag out episode with a presumably well armed criminal for Star Bucks unless directly threatened?
Fire from cover until the threat has stopped.
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Old September 21, 2017, 07:45 PM   #20
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I wouldn't be surprised if Starbucks doesn't sue the guy themselves for creating all the havoc in one of their establishments. I think their thinking is more along the line of "Cower... and plead with the robber to not hurt them".
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Old September 21, 2017, 08:05 PM   #21
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In this case,our good guy brought no knife,he brought no gun. He was just a guy who was there.He took the bad guy's knife from him.
And up to that point, he remained the "good guy".

Not necessarily so after that.

His chances with a jury might well be a lot better had he trained and acted accordingly.
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Old September 21, 2017, 08:28 PM   #22
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Old Marksman noted:
Quote:
And up to that point, he remained the "good guy".

Not necessarily so after that.

His chances with a jury might well be a lot better had he trained and acted accordingly.
Or if he was i Arizona, Texas or Idaho. But he wasn't or didn't.
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Old September 21, 2017, 09:34 PM   #23
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And up to that point, he remained the "good guy".

Not necessarily so after that.

His chances with a jury might well be a lot better had he trained and acted accordingly.
Criminal wise he is a good guy. Chief of Police is OK with what he did. It's only IF the robber sues then he MIGHT have trouble.

If a lawsuit comes he would be wise retaining Massad Ayoob as an expert witness.

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Old September 22, 2017, 06:52 AM   #24
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Sounds bad for the good guy regardless of the outcome. Even getting his name in the paper or on the news could bring retaliation from the bg's friends and family.

Sounds like a bad place to rob anyway, who pays with cash anymore for a $10 cup of coffee?
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Old September 22, 2017, 07:47 AM   #25
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Criminal wise he is a good guy.
Only as long is it is not determined in criminal courtthat he used no more force than had been necessary in the incident.

Quote:
Chief of Police is OK with what he did.
The Chief of Police is not the charging authority.

We have seen case after case in which the police, and in some cases the charging authority, initially determines an act to have been lawfully justified, only to file charges later.

Of course, in many of the cases the sate ah failed to prove guilt beyond a readable doubt, but that usually leaves the defendant with little or nothing non the baks afterward.

Quote:
It's only IF the robber sues then he MIGHT have trouble.
By my definition, he would have trouble the moment he starts running up billable hours with an attorneys' firm.

And at that point, the plaintiff would need only to show by a preponderance of the evidence that unnecessary force had been used.

But it may not go to trial. His attorneys may advise him that he would be better off settling out of court rather than continuing an expensive defense and risking a lot more with a jury.

Should that happen, we will never know about it.

If he is charged with the use of excessive force, or if he is sued, I would be interacted in knowing just how he would intend to try to defend himself.

He obviously did not use the blade in a manner taught by knowledgeable self defense experts.
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