The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 8, 2017, 09:27 PM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 7,609
Real Life LE Scenario

A man is running around his house pointing a rifle at people and screaming at them. These people call police. When police arrive, he claims people are shooting at him, refuses to disarm, and runs inside his house.

As one of the first officers to arrive, you take up a position near the house. Your own agency's SWAT team has been called out and is relieving some of the people you arrived with. Other, larger, better funded, agencies from nearby are headed in to assist.

As your SWAT team starts relieving the first responders, shots ring out. You see glass jet out of the front window of the house, followed by smoke. However, you cannot see an actual person behind the window due to the sunscreen. You are unsure where all your officers are, or whether outside agencies have arrived on the scene. You hear over the radio that one of your officers outside the house has been hit. Do you take the blind shot through the window or wait?
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old September 8, 2017, 09:43 PM   #2
the Black Spot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: arkansas
Posts: 165
Wait
the Black Spot is offline  
Old September 8, 2017, 10:40 PM   #3
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: IN
Posts: 2,585
Huh? Is this a trick question? Blind shot? When there are others in better positions?

Darn well better wait.
__________________
"You haven't lived until you've died." - various
People . . . not a big fan . . .
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old September 8, 2017, 11:21 PM   #4
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 4,453
Why take a shot when one does not know neither where exactly the shooter is or if there are any other people present.

Only a fool would just blindly open fire.

Deaf
__________________
“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old September 8, 2017, 11:27 PM   #5
CalmerThanYou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2017
Posts: 295
Seems pretty simple. never engage unless you are fully able to identify the intended target and determine if it is prudent to make that attempt.
CalmerThanYou is offline  
Old September 8, 2017, 11:36 PM   #6
Model12Win
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,866
Throw in a pepper bomb.
Model12Win is offline  
Old September 9, 2017, 12:26 AM   #7
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,680
Wait, and report accurately what you see and hear.
armoredman is offline  
Old September 9, 2017, 12:39 AM   #8
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 5,923
There are more tools than a hammer,and not everything is a nail.
Does anyone know if there is a family inside?
Location of other officers unknown.Might some have come in the back way?

I'm a civilian lay person. In some environments,overwelming fire superiority might be the best response,but,IMO,not this time.

You say SWAT has arrived? I would expect that means a Leader has arrived.

There will be a plan and disciplined response.Get your ears on and listen for instructions.
And get behind cover.
A coached,directed team effort is what is required,not undisciplined "sound shots"
I would guess the SWAT team has drilled on recovering a downed officer.
I would guess a negotiating team would try to achieve the best outcome possible
And I would expect the sniper team(s) with optics and perhaps IR,thermal,or? would prepare to handle the worst case.

Now,what is the upside of an individual reacting by firing blind into the building?

Last edited by HiBC; September 9, 2017 at 12:56 AM.
HiBC is offline  
Old September 9, 2017, 07:04 AM   #9
shafter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2009
Posts: 1,406
There are too many unknowns to answer this question appropriately, but when it comes to deadly force, when in doubt, don't shoot.
shafter is offline  
Old September 9, 2017, 07:10 AM   #10
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,446
The phrase "blind shot" says it all. Very small chance of a successful outcome, risks unknown and all kinds of ways for things to go wrong.
TailGator is offline  
Old September 9, 2017, 07:36 AM   #11
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,018
I was on the Bomb Squad. We responded to a lot of SWAT call outs simply because we had tools they didn't. Mainly, for the situation described, we had a RMI.

RMI = Remote Mobile Investigator. Commonly referred to as a Robot. It comes with a variety of tools, remote cameras, speakers, and listening devices. Not to mention weapon systems. Plus X-Ray systems.

In many situations, it can do anything an officer can do without putting the officers in danger.

The OP said an officer was hit, The MRI can get to him, and drag him to safety. It has the capability to breach the door, or wall and search the house.

You have the ability to negotiate with the bandit face to face, again without putting lives at risk. If need be it can find the suspect and disable him/her.

The RMI can deliver food, water, and medical supplies if needed. All while the operator sets in a nice safe, comfortable location.

I wont even address the Blind Shot BS.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old September 9, 2017, 11:16 AM   #12
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 7,609
As it turns out, the shots were the shooter. He opened fire on a SWAT officer relieving one of the responding officers. There were also innocents inside the house, and by oversight, a single officer behind the house. I was impressed at the discipline of the officer who also did not take the shot despite a strong hunch and now regularly second guesses that decision as the officer on his small rural police force who was hit died.

I'm sure the larger department that responded had a robot. Not sure the smaller one did. Tough to negotiate with a guy who believes invisible people are shooting at him even before a bunch of visibly armed people show up and try to get him to drop his weapon (which was another area where the officers showed great restraint).

One thing we don't often take into account in planning is not all the actors we face are acting rationally.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old September 9, 2017, 10:19 PM   #13
K_Mac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,785
It is certainly true that someone involved in such an attack is not acting rationally. It is also true that there is always room for second guessing when everything doesn't go according to plan. I agree with Deaf Smith that only a fool blindly opens fire in this situation.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin
K_Mac is offline  
Old September 9, 2017, 10:41 PM   #14
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 3,335
1) Stay in cover
2) Never fire a weapon unless you know what is behind the intended target.
3) Don't do something (stupid) that's going to put you in front of a judge
__________________
!أنا لست إرهابياً
TXAZ is offline  
Old September 9, 2017, 11:32 PM   #15
Rob228
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2010
Location: Okinawa JP
Posts: 949
Isn't this how Vicki Weaver got shot?
Rob228 is offline  
Old September 10, 2017, 12:37 AM   #16
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 6,457
call in

Airstrike
bamaranger is offline  
Old September 10, 2017, 04:54 AM   #17
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,545
Just about every case of "man with a gun" "Barricaded subject" has some component of mental health in it.

As President Trump has opened the door for Military Vehicles to start being procured for Police Forces to use in this kind of situation, one brought forward would at least allow negotiations to start, and not expose an Officer to gunfire.

Start collecting information via phone calls to close neighbors, very dodgy situation. How to observe, whilst not being seen?
Brit is offline  
Old September 10, 2017, 05:03 AM   #18
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,729
Seems to me that the officer who is beating himself over the death of a colleague is suffering from understandable trauma after the event, but ultimately he didn't shoot that other officer but in taking a blind shot he might well have done. Or another. Or a civilian.

Had he taken a look through the window he might have been shot himself.

I've come to the realisation, following recent events in life, that regret is a pointless emotion. That doesn't mean not questioning one's own actions after the event. It just means that you can't change the past. You learn and move on.

Where necessary take responsibility for actions taken or not. But know where the responsibility starts and, equally importantly, where it ends.

I feel for the officer involved, but once someone is shot, everyone involved starts thinking what they could have done differently. To not, is to not care. To not care is to not be an empathic human being.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old September 10, 2017, 07:21 AM   #19
Skadoosh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 2,013
Unless you're in Fallujah, suppressive fire is frowned upon.
__________________
NRA Life Member
USN Retired
Skadoosh is offline  
Old September 10, 2017, 07:35 AM   #20
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,018
Quote:
As President Trump has opened the door for Military Vehicles to start being procured for Police Forces to use in this kind of situation, one brought forward would at least allow negotiations to start, and not expose an Officer to gunfire.
Its not just Military Vehicles. Its Military Equipment.

So I'll go back to RMIs (Robots).

In Iraq as we know, IEDs was a major problem. This problem called for the massive purchace of Bomb Detection Equipment and other Toolings. As the war died down massive amounts of military equipment became surplus.

Most of this equipment is made available to civilian police agencies.

This includes RMIs X-Rays and related equipment.

After my post about RMIs it was mentioned that many small departments can't afford this type of equipment.

Releasing Surplus Military Equipment makes the equipment available to any legit organization at little or no cost.

Since 911, and the creation of Home Land Security, Every state and county has a DHS director and program.

Any department can go to their State or County DHS and request surplus military equipment including RMIs and X-Rays.

Training for this equipment is readily available form the NG units or Civilian EOD (Bomb Squads).

Every time we have the Olympics or similar events, the Fed. Government gets involved in security for the events. Funds are made available to purchase equipment, and training for local departments. After the event, the equipment if made available to the departments.

It doesnt cost a lot of money, whats really required is a grant writer. If you can write grants you can justify and get just about anything.

Having been a Bomb Tech. and instructor in the use of RMIs, and SWAT Instructor, I know that the RMI and even X-Rays are valuable, life saving tools.

Not only in Hostage and Barricaded suspect calls, but rescues also, such as down power lines or hazardous material spills. They can and are being used for rescuing downed officers and other victims, without putting other officer lives in harms way.

To keep this FIREARM RELATES, just about all RMIs can be equipped with firearms and water canons.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old September 10, 2017, 08:57 AM   #21
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,863
Hold fire. If you cannot ID your target, in an area with known LEOs and bystanders present, you should not fire.
raimius is offline  
Old September 10, 2017, 10:41 AM   #22
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 3,335
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy View Post
Its not just Military Vehicles. Its Military Equipment.

To keep this FIREARM RELATES, just about all RMIs can be equipped with firearms and water canons.
Or in the case of Dallas PD, a bomb to 'neutralize' a barricaded shooter.
That real life last year is pretty close to the scenario described here.
__________________
!أنا لست إرهابياً
TXAZ is offline  
Old September 10, 2017, 11:34 AM   #23
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 7,609
I don't know if the original responding agency had robots, though I'm sure some of the later ones did. The SWAT team members arrived in different vehicles took the iniative to start relieving the original officers. An armored vehicle was available and was later used to evacuate not only nearby houses; but at least a few innocents in the house with the shooter who were able to sneak out. However, it wasn't on the scene when the shooting happened and they evacuated the officer by throwing him in a squad car under fire and driving him to the hospital.

I think one related lesson we ought to consider as private citizens is that there are a fair amount of people out there with mental illnesses getting no treatment or insufficient treatment. In planning for self-defense, I've usually assumed some level of rationality on the part of the aggressor; but irrational aggressors aren't rare. A guy who wants your TV probably doesn't want to die over it. A guy who thinks your family is space octopi sent to suck out his brain may be harder to discourage.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old September 10, 2017, 12:14 PM   #24
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,266
"...more tools than a hammer..." Yep. Duct tape and vice grips.
"...you cannot see..." Means you sit and wait until your higher ups tell you what to do. Especially when you have no idea what exactly is going on or exactly where everybody is located. Unless you want to be the guy responsible for a Blue on Blue incident or shooting a bystander.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old September 10, 2017, 02:56 PM   #25
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 5,923
Many yearsago in the next town south of me there was a hostage in a restaurant situation.Kind of a quiet Mayberry sort of 38,000 pop place.
They did have a rudimentary SWAT team.
An innocent inside the restaurant was hiding in the rest room.
Situation went critical,police shot through glass with a 243.Bad guy killed the hostage.
Innocent guy in rest room finds the gunfire motivational.He attempts to escape out the window. He died of something like 40 hits from the police outside.
Knowing your target and discipline matter.
HiBC is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12929 seconds with 8 queries