hand light night time sighting

coyotewsm · June 27, 2015, 11:59 PM

I'm not going to ask a question but give an experience that I had yesterday and see what king of feedback I get.

Yesterday morning I went outside to hook up the boat to go fishing. When I walked over to the shed I heard something moving around and when I shone the light there was an armadillo moving around. Well I decided to take him out so I drawed and shone the light but I couldn't see my sights. What I ended up having to do was hold the light behind the gun to be able to sight. When I did this I was able to see the sights and I go off a pretty good shot on him but I had to do so one handed.

Thoughts and feedback will be appreciated.

Slimjim9 · June 28, 2015, 07:23 AM

That must have been one mean looking armadillo!

Reminds me of a line from "The Unforgiven":
Townsman: "You just shot an unarmed armadillo!"
Coyotewsm: "well, he should have armed himself."

g.willikers · June 28, 2015, 08:25 AM

That's why sights like Trijicon were invented.
There is a technique for holding the light over the gun hand wrist and the top of the strong hand forearm that can illuminate the sights.
Another way is to hold the light up against your off side neck and jaw, illuminating both the sights and the target.
Of course, all of these that involve using a light give an opponent a good target.
Except for armadillos - they seldom go around armed with anything other than their natural armor.

AK103K · June 28, 2015, 05:45 PM

The techniques I know, dont really illuminate the sights themselves, but the target, which in turn allows the sights to be seen. You dont want the light shining on the sights from behind though.

I think what g.willikers was trying to describe was the "Harries Technique", which looks something like this when correctly employed....

A light on the gun also works well.

I have tritium night sights on most all of my pistols, and find them to be very helpful. They will allow you to shoot in total darkness if need be, but they are also useful in all lighting conditions. It doesnt have to be "dark" to make use of them.

Having both, night sights and a light covers pretty much anything you might need.

g.willikers · June 28, 2015, 06:32 PM

The technique I was trying to describe looks kind of like the one AK103K shows, but with the support hand and arm over the gun arm, not under it.
Not at the wrist but up the gun arm a little ways.
Then the gun arm is held down while firing, reducing the effect of recoil, and the flashlight is illuminating the gun, as well as the target.
The technique was taught in a class I took a long time ago, and worked pretty good, even in the dark, with regular ole' iron sights.
If it had a name, I can't recall.
And the only time I ran across it was in that one class.
I can't find a picture so far, but I'll keep looking, though.

coyotewsm · June 29, 2015, 10:04 AM

Thanks for the info guys. I'll try and play around with it a little bit now that I have some ideas and see what works.

g.willikers · June 29, 2015, 11:14 AM

Just to be sure the advice I gave was true and accurate, I tried the technique out last night, in a very dark room.
It works as advertised.
The room and the sights were well lit, even with old eyes.
It's hard to understand why it's not taught much, if at all.
No youtube videos or pictures to be found.
Maybe it's due to the new sight inventions that have replaced the need.
But for standard sights, the technique works very well, indeed.

Jim243 · June 29, 2015, 12:08 PM

With today's guns it is hard to believe there is no rail under the barrel. I use a combo light/laser under neath and the point of aim is directly in the center of the light at 21 feet. Laser is sighted in at the center of the light.

Jim

Old Stony · June 29, 2015, 12:34 PM

I'm sympathetic with your problem. I recently had the same type thing happen with me involving a copperhead on my front lawn before daylight one morning. I have night sights and weapon lights and all that stuff...except lasers which I don't like, but none were handy. I did have quick access to an M&P compact pistol with a suppressor. Took me 3 shots to center up on the little head of that critter.

coyotewsm · June 29, 2015, 12:53 PM

Jim243 I do have an under barrel rail on my gun but for carrying purposes I prefer to not have something on there.

Jim243 · June 29, 2015, 01:05 PM

Light will not fit in my holster, but rides in my pocket and slips on in seconds. Works great as just a flashlight too.

Jim

dyl · June 29, 2015, 01:45 PM

You experienced lighting the sights directly from behind. That can be tricky as you're multi-tasking lighting up the pistol and the target and adjusting for it.

If the target is fairly well lit, you should be able to hold the pistol sights up against it and you will see the silhouette of the pistol sights. You won't see the dots or the face of the sights (will be dark) but the outline should be clear. Your target is ID'd, your sights are backlit. Pistol mounted lights provide that and so can a hand held flashlight.

The different techniques first give you a way to get the flashlight pointed in the right place without having to think about "aiming" it independently. If the pistol moves, the light moves, and you just swivel around. There is one technique I can think of that's an exception to this, involving holding the light way overhead like an old fashion lantern shining down on the target. I heard the intent was to throw return fire off, or even because it may have been taught with old lanterns, but it seems cumbersome to me.

DanTSX · July 7, 2015, 11:25 PM

Night sights and WML. Surefire has a new slim weapon mounted light that isn't as bulky as an X300 in a holster. Weapon mounted lights will provide a sight picture even of you don't have night sights.

Weapon mounted lights freak out some guys for some reason, but I don't think they understand the momentary nature of the light is for target / threat ID, not for looking for the switchblade some thug dropped in the bushes. then the light goes off and there is nothing for return fire to aim at. Holding a light above your head opens up a big hole in your ballistic vest to to take a round to your armpit and vitals, and easier to be thrown off balance. Also, weapon mounted lights provide a makeshift standoff device to prevent slides from being pushed out of battery on contact shots or muzzle strikes, as far as muzzle sweeping people, you already most likely are if you are holding a pistol in one hand or light in another. Civilians can simply keep the muzzle angled downwards and the light splash will allow you to make positive ID without flagging your daughter's boyfriend sneaking in at 2 a.m.

Also, stick to quality weapon mounted lightS. Surefire is excellent featuring a quick detach, but pricey. Streamlight is rugged and a great value, but lacks the refinements of surefire.

Slopemeno · July 8, 2015, 01:05 AM

I tried the Harries and Ayoob (hands side by side) flashlight techniques playing stock-class paintball at night. Harries works better during the shooting, Ayoob better during reloading. A weapon-mounted light is way less workload to employ.

And yeah, for some reason some people just don't get it.

raimius · July 8, 2015, 07:45 PM

Yup, you don't need to illuminate the side of the sights facing you. You just need enough contrast to see the outline of the sights. In other words, illuminate the target, and you'll be able to use the sights.

James K · July 8, 2015, 09:19 PM

As some may know if they read my posts, when dealing with an armed armadillo or two-legged armed armadillo, I am against the idea of a light mounted on the gun or held in front of the body. Some will claim that this or that light is so bright it will blind anyone within 20 miles, and that might be true if the beam is directly on the opponent. But if the two-legged armadillo is to the side, the light says very plainly "shoot here". And when the bad armadillo does that, things get very bad, very quickly.

Jim

DanTSX · July 8, 2015, 09:58 PM

James, that is why the light is momentary for threat ID only, rather than searching. Illuminate, ID, and move. And don't clear alone.

106RR · October 16, 2015, 02:54 AM

In night IDPA matches and night Steel shoots I have found a red Nova light to be best with Trijicon night sights. You also do not lose all of your night vision with that system. The latter may be vital if you are past 50. Older people take a lot longer to regain night vision.

tedbeau · October 23, 2015, 11:47 AM

My club just had their end of season twilight double header IDPA match.
We shot 5 stages in the afternoon, had a cookout and shot 5 stages after dark with lights.

I had the same trouble as the OP, trying to find a good compromise between light on target and light on sights. It's true that if the target is close enough you can get a silhouette outline of you front sight from the light reflected off the target but it really hard to see the rear sight making height adjustments difficult.

I also had a hard time positioning the light and gun separately so everything was lined up while doing it at match speed. All in all a really fun match but it really showed you how difficult it is to shoot in the dark.

Reloads were another issue. I knew I didn't want to pocket the light to do a reload, so I finally decided that the best method was to handle the light the way I handle my mag when done shooting an IDPA stage. I have always pulled the mag with my weak hand, tucked it into my arm pit of my strong hand arm then opened the slide to show clear. This method seemed to work ok for the light except on the unload and show clear at the end of a string, but then I wasn't on the clock so I could take the time to pocket the light before pulling the mag.

June 27, 2015, 11:59 PM	#1
coyotewsm Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2014 Posts: 242	hand light night time sighting I'm not going to ask a question but give an experience that I had yesterday and see what king of feedback I get. Yesterday morning I went outside to hook up the boat to go fishing. When I walked over to the shed I heard something moving around and when I shone the light there was an armadillo moving around. Well I decided to take him out so I drawed and shone the light but I couldn't see my sights. What I ended up having to do was hold the light behind the gun to be able to sight. When I did this I was able to see the sights and I go off a pretty good shot on him but I had to do so one handed. Thoughts and feedback will be appreciated.

June 28, 2015, 08:25 AM	#3
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	That's why sights like Trijicon were invented. There is a technique for holding the light over the gun hand wrist and the top of the strong hand forearm that can illuminate the sights. Another way is to hold the light up against your off side neck and jaw, illuminating both the sights and the target. Of course, all of these that involve using a light give an opponent a good target. Except for armadillos - they seldom go around armed with anything other than their natural armor. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” Last edited by g.willikers; June 28, 2015 at 08:35 AM.

June 28, 2015, 06:32 PM	#5
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	The technique I was trying to describe looks kind of like the one AK103K shows, but with the support hand and arm over the gun arm, not under it. Not at the wrist but up the gun arm a little ways. Then the gun arm is held down while firing, reducing the effect of recoil, and the flashlight is illuminating the gun, as well as the target. The technique was taught in a class I took a long time ago, and worked pretty good, even in the dark, with regular ole' iron sights. If it had a name, I can't recall. And the only time I ran across it was in that one class. I can't find a picture so far, but I'll keep looking, though. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” Last edited by g.willikers; June 28, 2015 at 07:01 PM.

June 29, 2015, 11:14 AM	#7
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Just to be sure the advice I gave was true and accurate, I tried the technique out last night, in a very dark room. It works as advertised. The room and the sights were well lit, even with old eyes. It's hard to understand why it's not taught much, if at all. No youtube videos or pictures to be found. Maybe it's due to the new sight inventions that have replaced the need. But for standard sights, the technique works very well, indeed. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

June 29, 2015, 12:08 PM	#8
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	With today's guns it is hard to believe there is no rail under the barrel. I use a combo light/laser under neath and the point of aim is directly in the center of the light at 21 feet. Laser is sighted in at the center of the light. Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

June 28, 2015, 07:23 AM	#2
Slimjim9 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2015 Posts: 783	That must have been one mean looking armadillo! Reminds me of a line from "The Unforgiven": Townsman: "You just shot an unarmed armadillo!" Coyotewsm: "well, he should have armed himself."

June 28, 2015, 05:45 PM	#4
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	The techniques I know, dont really illuminate the sights themselves, but the target, which in turn allows the sights to be seen. You dont want the light shining on the sights from behind though. I think what g.willikers was trying to describe was the "Harries Technique", which looks something like this when correctly employed.... A light on the gun also works well. I have tritium night sights on most all of my pistols, and find them to be very helpful. They will allow you to shoot in total darkness if need be, but they are also useful in all lighting conditions. It doesnt have to be "dark" to make use of them. Having both, night sights and a light covers pretty much anything you might need.

June 29, 2015, 10:04 AM	#6
coyotewsm Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2014 Posts: 242	Thanks for the info guys. I'll try and play around with it a little bit now that I have some ideas and see what works.

June 29, 2015, 12:34 PM	#9
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I'm sympathetic with your problem. I recently had the same type thing happen with me involving a copperhead on my front lawn before daylight one morning. I have night sights and weapon lights and all that stuff...except lasers which I don't like, but none were handy. I did have quick access to an M&P compact pistol with a suppressor. Took me 3 shots to center up on the little head of that critter.

June 29, 2015, 12:53 PM	#10
coyotewsm Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2014 Posts: 242	Jim243 I do have an under barrel rail on my gun but for carrying purposes I prefer to not have something on there.

June 29, 2015, 01:05 PM	#11
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Light will not fit in my holster, but rides in my pocket and slips on in seconds. Works great as just a flashlight too. Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

June 29, 2015, 01:45 PM	#12
dyl Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,310	Backlight You experienced lighting the sights directly from behind. That can be tricky as you're multi-tasking lighting up the pistol and the target and adjusting for it. If the target is fairly well lit, you should be able to hold the pistol sights up against it and you will see the silhouette of the pistol sights. You won't see the dots or the face of the sights (will be dark) but the outline should be clear. Your target is ID'd, your sights are backlit. Pistol mounted lights provide that and so can a hand held flashlight. The different techniques first give you a way to get the flashlight pointed in the right place without having to think about "aiming" it independently. If the pistol moves, the light moves, and you just swivel around. There is one technique I can think of that's an exception to this, involving holding the light way overhead like an old fashion lantern shining down on the target. I heard the intent was to throw return fire off, or even because it may have been taught with old lanterns, but it seems cumbersome to me.

July 7, 2015, 11:25 PM	#13
DanTSX Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2008 Posts: 318	Night sights and WML. Surefire has a new slim weapon mounted light that isn't as bulky as an X300 in a holster. Weapon mounted lights will provide a sight picture even of you don't have night sights. Weapon mounted lights freak out some guys for some reason, but I don't think they understand the momentary nature of the light is for target / threat ID, not for looking for the switchblade some thug dropped in the bushes. then the light goes off and there is nothing for return fire to aim at. Holding a light above your head opens up a big hole in your ballistic vest to to take a round to your armpit and vitals, and easier to be thrown off balance. Also, weapon mounted lights provide a makeshift standoff device to prevent slides from being pushed out of battery on contact shots or muzzle strikes, as far as muzzle sweeping people, you already most likely are if you are holding a pistol in one hand or light in another. Civilians can simply keep the muzzle angled downwards and the light splash will allow you to make positive ID without flagging your daughter's boyfriend sneaking in at 2 a.m. Also, stick to quality weapon mounted lightS. Surefire is excellent featuring a quick detach, but pricey. Streamlight is rugged and a great value, but lacks the refinements of surefire.

July 8, 2015, 01:05 AM	#14
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	I tried the Harries and Ayoob (hands side by side) flashlight techniques playing stock-class paintball at night. Harries works better during the shooting, Ayoob better during reloading. A weapon-mounted light is way less workload to employ. And yeah, for some reason some people just don't get it.

July 8, 2015, 07:45 PM	#15
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Yup, you don't need to illuminate the side of the sights facing you. You just need enough contrast to see the outline of the sights. In other words, illuminate the target, and you'll be able to use the sights.

July 8, 2015, 09:19 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	As some may know if they read my posts, when dealing with an armed armadillo or two-legged armed armadillo, I am against the idea of a light mounted on the gun or held in front of the body. Some will claim that this or that light is so bright it will blind anyone within 20 miles, and that might be true if the beam is directly on the opponent. But if the two-legged armadillo is to the side, the light says very plainly "shoot here". And when the bad armadillo does that, things get very bad, very quickly. Jim

July 8, 2015, 09:58 PM	#17
DanTSX Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2008 Posts: 318	James, that is why the light is momentary for threat ID only, rather than searching. Illuminate, ID, and move. And don't clear alone.

October 16, 2015, 02:54 AM	#18
106RR Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2002 Posts: 234	In night IDPA matches and night Steel shoots I have found a red Nova light to be best with Trijicon night sights. You also do not lose all of your night vision with that system. The latter may be vital if you are past 50. Older people take a lot longer to regain night vision.

October 23, 2015, 11:47 AM	#19
tedbeau Member Join Date: March 17, 2015 Posts: 54	I hear you OP My club just had their end of season twilight double header IDPA match. We shot 5 stages in the afternoon, had a cookout and shot 5 stages after dark with lights. I had the same trouble as the OP, trying to find a good compromise between light on target and light on sights. It's true that if the target is close enough you can get a silhouette outline of you front sight from the light reflected off the target but it really hard to see the rear sight making height adjustments difficult. I also had a hard time positioning the light and gun separately so everything was lined up while doing it at match speed. All in all a really fun match but it really showed you how difficult it is to shoot in the dark. Reloads were another issue. I knew I didn't want to pocket the light to do a reload, so I finally decided that the best method was to handle the light the way I handle my mag when done shooting an IDPA stage. I have always pulled the mag with my weak hand, tucked it into my arm pit of my strong hand arm then opened the slide to show clear. This method seemed to work ok for the light except on the unload and show clear at the end of a string, but then I wasn't on the clock so I could take the time to pocket the light before pulling the mag.