lead/coating buildup problems, 9mm

[RC20]

Lead and copper have nothing in common.

Equally, Bore Tech Eliminator will get rid of copper and you don't have that issue with the highly shaky evidence that bullets being used to lap a barrel.

I shoot a hell of a lot of jacketed bullets and what barrels did any copper, easily removed as part of cleaning without the magical part kicking in.

Lead plate out is either a failure of the coating (which looks to be exactly what happened here) and a poor formula that expected the coating to make up for poor quality.

I shot a fair amount of lead back in the day, no issues with lube done right and velocity kept down to reason. Shawdo9mm is well withing reason.

As noted, only time I saw anything like it was complete removal of the lead grease.

I had a few streaks but nothing remotely like what has been shown. We used the mesh screen system back then to get any out.

It worked because it did not force lead down into the bore, it scraped it and the mesh left it a place to go.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by RC20

Lead and copper have nothing in common.

Equally, Bore Tech Eliminator will get rid of copper and you don't have that issue with the highly shaky evidence that bullets being used to lap a barrel.

I shoot a hell of a lot of jacketed bullets and what barrels did any copper, easily removed as part of cleaning without the magical part kicking in.

Lead plate out is either a failure of the coating (which looks to be exactly what happened here) and a poor formula that expected the coating to make up for poor quality.

I shot a fair amount of lead back in the day, no issues with lube done right and velocity kept down to reason. Shawdo9mm is well withing reason.

As noted, only time I saw anything like it was complete removal of the lead grease.

I had a few streaks but nothing remotely like what has been shown. We used the mesh screen system back then to get any out.

It worked because it did not force lead down into the bore, it scraped it and the mesh left it a place to go.

The lewis lead removal system. I signed up for a notification from Brownell's, I will be buying one when it comes back in stock. Its a tool I want in my cleaning arsenal.

[Unclenick]

I used the Iosso product for copper fouling before I discovered the Bore Tech products. Like JB Bore Compound, it's a soft abrasive and it works and also polishes metal well. Also, you've reminded me that Slip2000 Carbon Killer claims to dissolve lead as well as carbon. It works great on carbon, but I've never done the lead experiment and will have to give it a try.

Shadow 9mm,

The Sprinco product is a very good lube. I've used it on my Redding dies with moving parts and treated press parts with it and the felt friction goes way down and parts intended to "float" into position for self-alignment float more easily better. Just to be clear, the 5-80 shot interval mentioned is the period over which velocity gradually increases, and it then stays higher.

There are a number of lubes that bond to metal. All of Slip2000's EWL oils bond to the metal some. For that matter, so does the Sprinco Green Plate+, the penetrant/cleaner, which costs much less than the colloidally suspended micronized moly version does, so you could try it, too. Shooter's Solutions used to have a product that made a great permanent barrel coating, but they seem to be gone, at least for now. Could be related to all the COVID shipping and transport problems.

Sorry to hear you had problems with firelapping. I've had good luck with it, but as I suggested, you can polish without changing bore dimensions appreciably (less than a tenth of a thousandth). The LASC site used to have instructions for putting JB compound in a barrel with a bore mop and shooting lead through it until it polished. Apparently, for revolvers with a constriction at the frame, this light surface polishing will allow soft bullets that the firing pressure can bump up to get through the constriction and not suffer gas cutting and not cause leading. Soft bullets will polish better than hard cast because of the bump-up. They just aren't as good for firelapping as they tend to reduce bore surfaces evenly, narrow and wide spot alike.

[RC20]

Also, you've reminded me that Slip2000 Carbon Killer claims to dissolve lead as well as carbon

I missed that, I don't shoot lead anymore so was not looking but rare possible nephews might take over my Penn bullets to reload.

I did keep a close eye on the Sig and HK when I shot the Penns and no issue (the synthetic grease smokes a bit but did no fouling)

[reddog81]

The coating should hold up if done correctly. Did you pull a few and see if the coating was missing on loaded rounds? The Lyman M expander should help prevent problems but it’ll help to know if the coating is failing when being shot or if it’s happening before that.

I’ve never used Hi-Tek however I’ve powder coat many 1,000’s of my cast bullets. I had one 9mm batch that didn’t cure correctly and that is the one time I’ve had problems. I just started shooting 450 Bushmaster and it’s only seen lead bullets of the PC’d or traditional lube varieties and even at 1,700 FPS the barrel is spotless after one patch of CLP.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by reddog81

The coating should hold up if done correctly. Did you pull a few and see if the coating was missing on loaded rounds? The Lyman M expander should help prevent problems but it’ll help to know if the coating is failing when being shot or if it’s happening before that.

I’ve never used Hi-Tek however I’ve powder coat many 1,000’s of my cast bullets. I had one 9mm batch that didn’t cure correctly and that is the one time I’ve had problems. I just started shooting 450 Bushmaster and it’s only seen lead bullets of the PC’d or traditional lube varieties and even at 1,700 FPS the barrel is spotless after one patch of CLP.

I'm getting the press running tomorrow if I have time or wed/thurs. I will load a few dummy rounds to pull. Will recheck the coating and bullet diameter before and after to make sure everything is as expected. I am also going to smash a few with a hammer to make sure the coating is not flaking off.

[Shadow9mm]

So the barrel is spotless. need to wait for some good weather to get to the range.
yes, slip 2000 carbon killer does work on lead, reasonably well with lots of soak time.
no, bore tech eliminator did not work on lead, as far as I could tell, even after scrubbing, per the directions, and soaking.
No lead is on order, should be here in a few days, hopefully I wont need it, but I would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. or have to do that much scrubbing again.

to get the barrel clean
slip 2k, patch, copper brush patch copper brush
soak 1hr
patch copper brush, patch copper brush
soak 1hr
bore tech, followed instructions
soak 1hr
slip 2k, patch, copper brush
soak 1hr
dry patch left overnight
come morning, still a couple specs of lead
lead remover cloth used as patches, about 4
soak 6hrs, slip 2k
still some lead spots
more lead remover cloth patches
looking clean
JB bore cleaner, per the instructions
JB bore bright polish, per the instructions
barrel is bright and shiny, looking like new, nothing I can see. will take the bore scope to it tomorrow to confirm.

On a side note, while I enjoy cleaning my guns, this was a bit much, and much more aggressive than I generally prefer, no recommending it, just what I was able to do with what I had available to me.

[JKP]

The only time I have had problems with coated bullets was when using titegroup and magnum primmers. The SMP work fine with slower powder like universal or unique although I did drop loads .2 grain.

[reddog81]

When trying to remove lead I’ve found it helps to wait like you did. I usually run a patch or 2, then chore boy, and then let CLP sit for a few hours or a day and repeat.

[Don P]

A mix of 50/50 white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide will dissolve the lead. Be sure to rinse the barrel out with baking soda water mix as the 50/50 mix is caustic.

[tangolima]

Sorry didn't mean to steer the thread in different direction. Did anyone try pb blocker? It is advertised as a treatment on barrel to reduce leading. Friend recommended it. Reviews on other forum sounded mixed.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by tangolima

Sorry didn't mean to steer the thread in different direction. Did anyone try pb blocker? It is advertised as a treatment on barrel to reduce leading. Friend recommended it. Reviews on other forum sounded mixed.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

sounds interesting. Anyone else try this product?

[RC20]

You can go with magic elixirs or you can do best practices.

That kind of leading is a total failure of the bullet coating system. Nothing is going to change that. Root cause is open but I don't believe its anything other than the coating system on the bullet. Powder, primers and speed might have some affect but not to that amount.

My take was to take the Pistol down at the range after a few rounds and check, both the Sig and the HK.

I upped the count and repeated.

When I was younger we mixed our own lead and cast bullets out of it and shot them in magnum 357 and 44. No gas check and no leading at all (no memory what we did for coating tough it would have been grease of some kind).

If 3 of us just using the recipees and approach could do that, an mfg that can't has gone over the edge completely with no quality control.

They need to shoot each batch of their own bullets.

[Unclenick]

My suspicion is that Reddog81 is on to it. If you watch the Eastwood videos on powder coating, the stuff has to sit for half an hour at its curing temperature. If these bullets were pulled out too early, that could well mean poor bonding.

I have some PB Blocker, but I haven't tried it yet. I didn't mention it because of the late 2010 thread about it on the Castboolits site. It makes me want to try the flat plate drag test to see if the problem has been fixed or not.

[Shadow9mm]

UPDATE, I think I found the problem! Bad bullets! Will be contacting Brazos! This is not acceptable

I have bought 5 batches. all marked 0.357. The first batch I got I measured several and they were all 0.3570, spot on, and it seemed to shoot fine. The problem started when I got into my second batch.

So I did a couple tests tonight. hit a couple with a hammer. coating stayed in place.

Loaded 5 dummies measured before and after. after loading they were about 0.0005 smaller give or take a little. nothing crazy. I need to adjust my crimp setup a touch. While measuring the before bullet diameter seemed off. 0.356 give or take.

so I grabbed 10 random bullets of of my 4 remaining batches, here are the results. They are definitely out of spec

all marked 0.357

#1
.3555
.3555
.3555
.3560
.3560
.3555
.3560
.3560
.3555
.3560

#2
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560

#3
.3560
.3555
.3555
.3560
.3550
.3560
.3555
.3560
.3560
.3560

#4
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3565
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560

[reddog81]

If done correctly a slightly smaller coated bullet shouldn't shouldn't cause leading. A slightly smaller traditionally lubed bullet can be problematic, but coatings are supposed to negate those issues. In theory accuracy will suffer with the smaller bullets, but most people wouldn't even notice with 9mm.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by reddog81

If done correctly a slightly smaller coated bullet shouldn't shouldn't cause leading. A slightly smaller traditionally lubed bullet can be problematic, but coatings are supposed to negate those issues. In theory accuracy will suffer with the smaller bullets, but most people wouldn't even notice with 9mm.

If it were not for the heavy fouling I would not worry about it. But its making the barrel a pain to clean, and that level of buildup after less than 50rnds could cause a much bigger problem if I shot 100 in a day or tried to shoot some FMJ after it....

[tangolima]

I suppose you measured with micrometer.

In your 1st post, you said the bullet diameter was 0.3579", which is good for groove diameter of 0.357". The good batch is spot on 0.357", but it is already undersized. The bad batches are out right undersized.

I had similar experience with Penn bullets years ago. The owner promised to replace the order once he polished the moulds larger. He never did, and I forgot about it months after. I haven't ordered anything from them since.

Hope you have better luck with this caster.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by tangolima

I suppose you measured with micrometer.

In your 1st post, you said the bullet diameter was 0.3579", which is good for groove diameter of 0.357". The good batch is spot on 0.357", but it is already undersized. The bad batches are out right undersized.

I had similar experience with Penn bullets years ago. The owner promised to replace the order once he polished the moulds larger. He never did, and I forgot about it months after. I haven't ordered anything from them since.

Hope you have better luck with this caster.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

that was a typo, the 9 was supposed to be a "(" so .357

As it was explained to me, with lead bullets you want 0.001 larger than the groove diameter so they seal properly, which is why I ordered 0.357, as my barrel measured slight large at 0.3555. 0.356 would have only been 0.0005 larger and when I tested some at that diameter it was not sealing adequately, but the fouling was not nearly as bad as what I had with this batch.

calling them today, hoping I have good luck with them as well.

[reddog81]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

If it were not for the heavy fouling I would not worry about it. But its making the barrel a pain to clean, and that level of buildup after less than 50rnds could cause a much bigger problem if I shot 100 in a day or tried to shoot some FMJ after it....

But undersized bullets shouldn't cause a build up like that. Improperly coated bullets or bullets with a compromised coating will cause issues. It's common for people to use .356 bullets in 9mm without issue.

[Shadow9mm]

true. However I did hit a couple of the bullets with a hammer. there was no cracking of flaking. it stayed in place on the bullet. It seemed adequately bonded. The only thing I cam think is that with my bore size the bullets were too under sized and not sealing well allowing the gasses to bypass the bullet and stripping the coating and load off...

[reddog81]

Hopefully Brazos can provide some guidance.

I wonder if starting with a bore that has been scrubbed clean would make a difference? Good luck getting it figured out.

[Shadow9mm]

Well, I just heard from Brazos. They are double checking their setup and will be shipping me the correct bullets. Fantastic customer service!

[Grey_Lion]

I have to wonder if the manufacturer is resizing those rounds hot and they are shrinking when cooling. Wouldn't be the first time an accelerated process to " get them out the door" ruins an otherwise acceptable product.

[RC20]

A bullet should seat into the groves. A leas bullet more so.

I am suspect of the coating that is totally different than bullet grease.

A lot of people cast gazillions of bullets successfully without the micrometer limits we see today. Higher velocity did use gas checks but a quality lead bullet should not need that (and they don't have the base for them unless you cast them yourself)

I did deal with Penn on some question and they got annoyed when I was after details such as seating depth and the groves.

Its a marginal business and I would not expect much out of any of them. Best you hope is generally decent.