Building my 1st Rifle

[Mr. Lionheart]

Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to stop by and help me out I really appreciate it. I've been doing a bunch of research and came to the conclusion that what I'm looking for is a AR-10. I'm moving to Alaska in 2 months and would like to take up hunting. The rifle build I'm aiming for is something that can take down all big game animals in North America at the 300 yard range (bear moose etc.) and smaller big game animals at 500 yards range(deer sheep etc.). With the hope that as my skill increases it could cap out at 700 yards if at all possible with this build. I'm thinking a .308 round would be the perfect match for me as I want something that is reasonably priced and readily available, but I'm open to suggestions if there is something that is comparable to the .308. I just don't wanna kill my shoulder, ears and wallet every time I shoot as I'm going to wanna get lots of practice in.

I don't know how I feel about building my own rifle, but I'm pretty handy so if it's not that hard I'd consider that route. From what I read so far there is really only two choices to consider with the AR-10 platform and that's if you wanna go with Armalite or DPMS. Since I'd like to have a more custom rifle I was leaning towards the DPMS side (nothing is final for me I wanna weight the options). I'd like to keep the weight as light as possible (8-10 lbs would be nice) since I'll be trekking through the woods for days on end with this so was thinking maybe a 16"-18" barrel would be a optimal size for me. I wanna go with a Vortex scope as I hear great things about them from seasoned hunters and I like that it has a lifetime warranty. I'm willing to pay 2000-3000 USD for this build as I want something that will last a lifetime or as long as physically possible. Also note that with the scope if I have to get something that will be on the lower end of the Vortex line so that the rifle itself is top notch I'm OK with that so I don't have to go over my 3k price limit. I could always refit it for my small game rifle later down the line when I build one of those and buy a new Vortex for the AR-10 that's better for longer distances as my skill increases.

I'm also worried about getting ripped off in Alaska for prices as everything seems expensive due to the remote location of the state (I'll have to build it there as I don't want problems driving into Canada with a gun or parts). Anyone from there or been there know if their prices are reasonable? If not are gun parts restricted like an entire gun and I need to pick them up at a local store, or how does this work? If the local shop doesn't have a particular item do they charge more for it not being in stock? Thanks again for your help, hope this is as informative as possible and if I'm missing something here, please let me know.

[ShootistPRS]

Have you contacted the Canadian authorities to see what the regs on transporting a rifle? I know that a pistol is not allowed but I am not sure about a rifle or a dreaded "scary black gun".

[Reloadron]

aiming for is something that can take down all big game animals in North America at the 500-600 range.

Here is what I suggest you do. Once moved to Alaska and settled then look around at what people are hunting Alaskan game with. The 500 and 600 yard shots at any large game I do not see happening using a .308 Winchester in an AR 10 type rifle. I would wait till I was there and then do as the natives do. A big part of hunting in general is matching the rifle and cartridge to the game with all due consideration for distance. That means calculating what a hunting bullets energy will be at given ranges.

Pretty sure this forum has some members in Alaska and hopefully they will chime in.

Ron

[O4L]

Gun or parts could be shipped to your destination.

Just a thought.

[disseminator]

Here is what I suggest you do. Once moved to Alaska and settled then look around at what people are hunting Alaskan game with. The 500 and 600 yard shots at any large game I do not see happening using a .308 Winchester in an AR 10 type rifle. I would wait till I was there and then do as the natives do. A big part of hunting in general is matching the rifle and cartridge to the game with all due consideration for distance. That means calculating what a hunting bullets energy will be at given ranges.

That's some good advice right there.

I personally would not recommend a 308 Ar10 for big game at those ranges.

[T. O'Heir]

"...Have you contacted the Canadian authorities..." You cannot be in possession of any firearm in Canada without our possession licence that requires a Canadian course(No American CCW or any other firearms training, military service included, applies.) to get.
You can make a declaration at the border, pay a flat fee of $25Cdn and go on about your business.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...visite-eng.htm
Mind you, real(as in originals) AR-10's are prohibited and cannot be imported at all. Most of the current models are restricted same as a hand gun, but can be imported. 20 round mags are too evil as well.
Don't even think about trying to circumvent this stuff by hiding the thing in your truck/trailer either. Your truck/trailer will most likely be search thoroughly at the border. Getting caught means being arrested, possibly charged with a 'serious' offence, escorted to the border to be turned over to U.S. Homeland Security and denied any further entry.
No idea if AR-10's are on the ITAR list or not. If so, you can't export the thing or parts, even temporarily, without the State Dept.'s export permit.
I think, a 16" barrel(aside from far too much velocity loss) is considered an evil Class 3 SBR(Short Barreled Rifle) by your ATF. Totally unsuitable for hunting.
Don't even think about 500 and 600 yard shots at any large game with any .308. Never mind one with a short barrel of any type.
"...do they charge more for..." In most cases, anything you special order will be paid for when you order it(too many guys order stuff then change their minds when it arrives, weeks and sometimes months, later.) Sometimes a percentage. Sometimes 100%. Some shops charge a fee for ordering stuff. Most do not.

[Mr. Lionheart]

Thanks for your concern about driving into Canada, but as I stated in the original post I won't be driving through with this gun. I'm going to wait til I was in Alaska first before I started purchasing parts or a rifle, just to avoid that whole problem in the first place.

I did a quick check while you can't hunt with the AR-10 seems you can bring it into Canada and go to the ranges(or pass through) if you want. So that's a negative aspect to owning this rifle, but I planned on doing more hunting state side anyhow. The 16" barrel is the minimum your allowed without having to register this weapon and pay the $200 ATF tax is what I've been reading. I was considering buying a suppressor later down the line as walking in the woods with ear muffs is downright silly and dangerous and because I'd like to keep my hearing the way it is. Since a suppressor can add a slight amount of velocity and accuracy it was one of the reasons I'd consider the 16" if it will meet my needs. Hopefully someone can clarify this for me which is one of the reasons I'm here asking because I simply don't know.

I should have been more specific with the whole 500-600 yards range, that's my fault. The biggest of animals like bear and moose etc. I wouldn't attempt at anything over the 300 yard range, but deer and sheep I believe would be adequate at the 500-600 range. If this is the case I'd be happy with this platform or if someone has a better suggestion for a similar caliber that meets my needs I'm all ears, just remember I'd like to have something that's reasonably priced and readily available.

Thanks again guys for your responses. I got a good laugh at the whole no, no, no, don't bring it into Canada their going to lock you up messages, because I stated before this was not my intentions but since I asked so many questions you probably forgot that part. I don't wanna be the next star on locked up abroad lol

[DubC-Hicks]

I wouldn't take a .308 AR10 to 500-600 on game. That's hard enough with a good bolt action and better caliber.

A nice Savage, Remington, Winchester bolt gun in 7mm mag, 300win mag, anything with some more oomph behind it, would be a much better choice. Yet most still wouldn't recommend hunting live game at those ranges.

[Mr. Lionheart]

For my first rifle a bolt-action is a no go for me. I will get one of those for sure later down the line but I want a semi-auto for now. 7mm Mag and 300WM are powerful rounds from what I hear. I also hear gripes about not being able to shoot many rounds as they kick like a mule. That's not going to be ideal for me if I plan on going to the range and put 100+ rounds in on a weekly basis until I'm confident in my shot placement (unless I'm mistaken). I guess keeping my range under 400 yards is just going to have to do with the setup I'm aiming for.

[stagpanther]

I've never hunted Alaska--but here in Maine if you're in the woods a clear shot of even 100 yds is extremely rare. If you're going to be hunting at 300 yds =/- with an AR10 type weapon--then something like a 358 win might do the job--here's one I did and it shoots very accurately out to short/intermediate distances with the right load.

I'm not sure why a bolt gun would be out of the question for you--but I recently bought a Mossberg Patriot marinecoat in 375 ruger--and that would give you plenty of options in terms of both range and sheer stopping power in case you have a chance meeting with a big bear with an attitude problem.

[Mr. Lionheart]

Nice guns you have there stagpanther, what length barrel is that on the AR and how much does it weight in total?

As for the rounds I'm assuming .358 hits harder then a .338 which I hear hits pretty hard on both ends and is harder to come by and expensive. This looks to be the same for the .358. Being in the sub 100 range from what I'm reading a .308 or 30-06 would do just fine on anything walking around in North America. Everyone has been in agreement that shot placement is more important then stopping power. While not conventional or confirmed since I didn't see it, I did read of people killing big game animals with a 22lr and they admitted it was not considered ideal but with the right shot it worked.

As to why I won't consider a bolt-action, it's mainly for faster follow-up shots in the event I'm charged by dangerous game(I don't wanna have to rely on my .44 Magnum pistol while I'm being mauled, I'd like to avoid that whole situation if at all possible). Besides people are shooting sub MOA at the ideal ranges for a .308 with semi-auto, so accuracy isn't going to be a problem. I spent some more time reading some forums and came across this guy's experience:


In 2008, I didn't have the 1st hand experience hunting large North American game .

Now..... It is confirmed here at least, and I will share more specific info. ( Distances below may or may not be the cartridges max effective range next to a given critter. It is the distances involved in my hunts. The exception pertains to the bear and musk ox category only)

Short answer: Yes. A 308 168gr ttsx ( Asym or Black Hills) will cleanly kill any of the following critters outright and using one bullet......

Any species of deer, goat , or pig. 500 plus. Even the next monster hybrid swine will end up just as dead.

Mature bullelk out to 300 yards including Roosevelt elk.

Mature bull moose ( Alaskan) out to 250 yards.

Mature bull bison out to 250 yards.

Bear: Black bear out to 300 plus. Grizzly to about the same. Mature male Alaskan brown bear out to 150 yards. Mature male polar bear= No distance as I haven't shot one with no plans to. If it ever comes up, the white bear would end up just as dead as the others.

Musk ox: Haven't shot any myself, and since bison can grow much bigger than they do, not worried about it, as it is plenty for the task.

Domestic cattle: Mine. DRT as far as I can place the shot.

Mature male caribou at 400 yards plus.

Note: Comparing this to my hunting in the past using 3006, the same critters= No critter listed above could tell any difference.

[stagpanther]

I have absolutely zero experience with hunting in Alaska--so I'm just talking from the standpoint of what I know about the weapons I have and nothing more.

The 358 win is simply a 308 necked up to 358. However, it delivers exceptional power at shorter ranges for that case configuration--though probably confers not all that much of an advantage over the 338 fed, especially when the distances start stretching and you need to consider the rainbow trajectory of the 358. Mine has a barrel of 19.5."

Personally, I think your best bet would be to simply contact some guides/outfitters/active hunters in Alaska and see what they recommend.

A bolt gun like the one I have (or anything similar to a "guide gun") has the advantage of being quick to bare--an AR 10 type weapon is likely to be fairly heavy especially if it's built to "reach out" in distances and could be rather difficult to maneuver. I'll admit that the probability of "short stroking" the action in the heat of the moment might go up with a non auto-loader--but perhaps that can be over-come with practice. I've seen some picks of Alaskan bears and they look to be pretty big--and a real threat if they decide to make you their prey.

I'm not sure he's on this forum--but I got into a discussion with a guy who does hunt in Alaska with an AR 10 type gun--I think he uses something like a noreen 338 lapua--but the guy is x-special forces so "lugging the big iron" might not be as much of an issue for him.

My less than 2 cents.

[DubC-Hicks]

Short answer: Yes. A 308 168gr ttsx ( Asym or Black Hills) will cleanly kill any of the following critters outright and using one bullet......

I agree 100%, I never said the .308 round itself wasn't up for the job. For the most part, it's the Indian, not the arrow. I'm not sure how much shooting experience you have, I see you saying this is your first rifle, but reaching out to the ranges you speak of takes some practice. Estimating wind and drop is real at those ranges, you don't just sight the gun in and go. Calculations have to be done on the fly sometimes.

The reason I suggested a bolt gun in a more powerful cartridge is to give you all the advantages you can get. Starting with a more accurate gun in a caliber with less drop and that bucks the wind better would be a good head start.

If you want an AR10 style rifle for hunting, by all means do it. I want one for the same reason. It especially makes sense for quick follow-up shots on dangerous game. But also have more realistic hunting expectations for it. Most ethical hunters wouldn't take game at 600yards. Get a slight wind drift you didn't account for and you may have a wounded animal. But if you still feel like you want to hunt at those ranges, there are many other rifles better suited for it.

[random guy]

To hunt live game at 600-700 yards. you had better be an expert. Doing it with a .308 makes it even harder. It's a lot easier to miss or hit badly than it is to get a clean shot.

Limiting yourself to the AR10 probably doubles the price which may not matter to you. You would have better follow up shots but that can devolve into shooting an animal to pieces and maybe still losing it.

If I felt that I needed to shoot an animal at that sort of range (I'd have to be extremely hungry) I'd rather have a better cartridge and would just as soon be carrying a lighter, less expensive bolt action.

Cutting your range in half would solve a lot of problems.

[Mr. Lionheart]

Yeah stagpanther .338 and .358 are something I have been looking into and was considering but daniel-defense doesn't make them in that caliber, and was really thinking of getting one of theirs. The other thing I could do which I need to look into is buying a .308 DD rifle, then if I can after testing someone else's .338 and .358 rifle is buy the parts to switch it out to one of those (so I don't have to buy an entire gun again). Besides .338 and .358 are expensive and don't have the availability of .308. Which for my 1st gun I'd like to keep it cheap for all the rounds I'm going to put down range, so I'm confident up to 300-400 yards when I do hunt. I know some people are going to say well why buy an expensive gun, and my reasoning is durability, accuracy and quality. I want this to last a lifetime if possible and I wanna know that if my shot placement is off it's me who sucks and not the rifle I bought. As for the weight I'm an ex-power lifter so the extra 2-3 pounds shouldn't kill me. Believe me, I'm taking everything into consideration so your less then 2 cents means a lot to me.

Yeah DudC-Hicks I'll make sure this Indian knows what he's doing before I go hunting and I have some more experience shooting (I'm going to try for the one shot, one kill ratio, I love animals and don't want any unnecessary suffering). This isn't my 1st gun, just my 1st rifle and I've shot them in the past, they just weren't my own. As I said before I'm content with the 400 yard and under range as that looks like all I can expect from this platform, at least for ethical hunting.

[stagpanther]

You might consider trying hunting with a AR15 hybrid first to make sure it's the thing for you before going all in on an AR 10 type weapon--those DD's I know are pretty celestial priced rigs.

[stagpanther]

That Patriot I bought--I've never seen a rifle of that level of quality features at that price point--I'm not surprised they're hard to find now, I was considering getting a second one.

[Isk]

Yikes, I'm not really sure where to start here.

Welcome to Alaska! I live on the Kenai Peninsula and have for most of my life. I'm not a hunter but I know many hunters and you can't go too far here before a conversation about guns and hunting comes up. I hike a lot and like to watch the animals so I spend a decent amount of time outdoors.

First things first: Keep in mind, EVERYTHING is more expensive here. Everything.

Forget boutique cartridges. They won't be easy to find and rolling your own would likely cost more than it does in the lower 48 due to the cost of shipping. I personally think a .308 could handle any of the animals I've ever come across here (with the exception of one really gigantic moose I once saw), but most hunters I know go bigger: .30-06, .300 WinMag, 7mm Mag or even .338 Lapua are all somewhat common cartridges. I'm not sure how a .308 out of a 16" barrel would fair...someone more knowledgeable than me can probably address that.

Other considerations are going to be weight and shot range. Here on the Peninsula, the trees are thick and the mountains are steep. Contrary to popular belief, you can't usually just park off the highway somewhere and go looking for game. Sometimes, depending on what you want to find, you've got to get deep in the back country. If you go for goats or sheep, the shot range is going to be significant (one side of the valley to the other sometimes). Many of my friends prefer regular old light-weight bolt actions for ease of carry.

While I can't help much more with your specific questions about .308, I can help answer any other questions you might have about the terrain or Alaska, in general.

[dakota.potts]

It seems to me like there is a want here for two kinds of rifles rolled into one:

A rifle capable of taking precision shots at longer rages to cleanly kill large game

A rifle capable of delivering rapid follow up shots with decent power in the event of close range dangerous game encounters.

I wonder if you should not be trying to fill two rifle needs by looking into two rifles instead of one.

[Mobuck]

16-18" .308 IS NOT a 500-600 yard medium game rifle. It's a 150 yard big game and 300 yard medium game rifle(at best).

[Mr. Lionheart]

stagpanther why go with a AR-15 platform, wasn't the AR-10 designed with the .308 caliber in mind? I'm pretty content with the .308, it doesn't kick like a mule and it's stopping power is adequate, not to mention the price point on the rounds is reasonable. What more could i expect?

Thanks Isk, yeah those calibers are ones I have considered but I wanna work my way up to those and I think the .308 is the right place to start. It's very similar to the 30-06 and I'm hoping I just need to buy a few parts and can switch out to a higher caliber when the time comes.

Spot on dakota potts that's my intention. This is going to be my only rifle for a few years and while there is no one rifle that can do it all, I feel like this is a good compromise. I wanted something that doesn't excel at anything but can get most jobs done in the event I need it (i.e. range gun, big game hunting, dangerous game charging, home invasion, SHTF, foreign invasion). While some of that might sound silly for reasoning since 2 of those aren't as likely to happen, as the old saying goes "I'd rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it"

Yeah Mobuck, I've since lowered my max range down to 400 yards in one of my earlier responses. I'm also going to go for a 18" barrel and with a silencer on it and after many, many, many rounds down range I don't see why I couldn't hit this goal (not on the biggest animals of course like bear and moose, those like you said I'd keep within a shorter range). I figure with a high quality AR-10 like DD makes and my tenacity to achieve perfection in myself. I will eventually get there if at all possible and if not, I'll up the caliber to say .338, .358 or something similar when I'm comfortable. I'm curious as to what you think a 20" barrel is capable of? Would the range increase significantly or only marginally (with and without silencer if you know, thanks).

[stagpanther]

You may want to try an AR15--maybe borrow one--just to see how important that semi-auto function really is to you. I have hunted with AR's--but more often take a lever or bolt rifle instead--and I have 4 AR10-type AR's I've built to choose from if I wanted too. What the heck--you could also look into a ruger 454 redhawk as a sidearm if you're that concerned about a charging bear. As others have said--once you start reaching out velocity and energy mean everything (not to mention skills in calculating drop and drift).

[dakota.potts]

If I were trying to meet all your requirements with only one rifle, I guess I would try a semi auto .308 with premium ammo (Barnes or Hornady SST come to mind) and limit my shots

If you're willing to pay $5,000 and carry a 14 lb rifle, you could always get one of the .300 Win Mag AR rifles from Falkor or Omen Arms

[Venom1956]

I think you need to do a little more learning about what is what. some of your concepts are just wrong.

I think the .308 is the right place to start. It's very similar to the 30-06 and I'm hoping I just need to buy a few parts and can switch out to a higher caliber when the time comes.

Yeah that's not going to happen. The OAL of a 3006 is bigger then a 308 which prevents it from fitting in the mag well dont even get me started on feeding and case dimensions. Not to mention the marginal increase in power.

(i.e. range gun, big game hunting, dangerous game charging, home invasion, SHTF, foreign invasion)

Foreign Invasion... CQB planning on a lot of door kicking in the least populated state? if you're planning to shoot something mauling you I think you need to do a bit of research into how bears attack. You'll have one shot maybe. Two at best. You want to try and bring down 600 pounds of angry bear with a .308? get some bear spray and stay away from bears and dont leave stuff out that will attract them.

It starts at 2 min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmB41C9qbqE

That is the time frame you are looking at. They even had a heads up because they found the cubs first.

Look into guide guns and stuff aimed at Alaskan sporting in general to find a rifle that will do what you need. A bolt in a stopping caliber will serve you much better then a fancy AR10. For the money you will dump into an AR10 you could get a nice AR15 (for all your door kicking needs) and a nice big bore bolt to handle Alaskan sized game.

Justify what you want how you want fantasy is great. But when it comes to reality be smart. I mean unless there's invading foreign bears in CQB home invasion situation... For that I'd have to probably recommend a AR10

[GeauxTide]

A 168grain at 2700fps will have 1150 pounds of energy at 500 yards from a 22" barrel. So, subtracting 40fps per inch resulting in a velocity of 2540........