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July 5, 2019, 11:35 AM | #26 |
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The point about the rifle or shotgun being a better choice than a handgun could be valid, but just like we don't schedule the attack on ourselves outside the home, we also don't schedule home invasions and going to the safe, gun cabinet, closet or wherever we keep the long gun might not be possible. In a home invasion earlier this year, a man shot a woman in the mud room. She probably had no idea what was happening. The woman's husband was sitting on the bed in the master bedroom and was still getting dressed. He was shot on the bed. The same home invader shot a woman in a different house in the hallway, and another in her kitchen. If they even had a few seconds to realize what was happening, they certainly didn't have time to go to another room to retrieve a gun. Had they the time, they might have chosen to just flee. Why get in a gun fight with a home invader if you can avoid it and the possibility of being shot? But if you can't avoid it and you don't have time to get your Navy Seal M4, plate carrier and ECH, then draw the handgun you carry and engage the threat.
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July 5, 2019, 11:52 AM | #27 | |
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If they were effective - then everyone would make their own version. |
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July 5, 2019, 01:03 PM | #28 |
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There is a series of Youtube videos addressing the general question of how well do various loads penetrate various building materials. To the OP and to anyone else who is interested in exploring this, go to Youtube and look for the "Box O' Truth" videos. I haven't looked at them for some time, so I'm not prepared to recommend them without qualification. But they are attempting to quantify the OP's question, so they're worth a look.
Some of their empirical results may surprise you. |
July 5, 2019, 02:13 PM | #29 |
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I'm not necessarily advocating birdshot use.
I'm saying don't discount it's lethality- just like I tell people who think a .22 "will just piss someone off." |
July 5, 2019, 04:08 PM | #30 | |
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There's a LOT more involved than just the caliber or shot size.
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July 5, 2019, 07:19 PM | #31 |
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There is little reason to doubt birdshot's potential lethality until the range opens up considerably farther than apartment interior distances. But so long as birdshot will prove lethal against a body, it will also do so against a body on the other side of a gypsum wall.
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July 5, 2019, 08:43 PM | #32 | |
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July 6, 2019, 08:44 AM | #33 |
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Mostly echoing what many others have said...
No caliber capable of stopping an attacker will be stopped by standard building materials.* People seem to misunderstand what is meant by "overpenetration". Going through building materials is normal penetration not OVER penetration. Overpenetration is when you hit your target and the round goes through them to be a threat to innocent people who may be behind the target (even behind walls). So, in an apartment, your first priority should be to concentrate on your marksmanship to minimize the chances of a miss. Second, look for loadings in your chosen caliber that meet FBI penetration standards (i.e. no more than 18" in ballistic gel) so it is less likely to overpenetrate your target. *Even projectiles that won't stop an attacker will go through dry wall. When I was 18 years old a friend and I set up a pellet gun range in his basement for weak Crosman airgun pistols. We had to set up with wood board backstops when little CO2 .17cal pellets put nice little holes in the walls with no difficulty. I also had my one AD/ND with my pellet gun when I put a hole in my ceiling. |
July 6, 2019, 09:19 AM | #34 |
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I understand concerns about over-penetration. The question is how do you weigh that risk against the potential risk to yourself. Depending on how you weigh those risks, you might consider an alternative --- a taser (if legal where you live). There are some obvious drawbacks to using one, like essentially being limited to one "shot."
I personally will stick with a real firearm and hope I don't miss, or if I do, that it doesn't hit someone else (I do live in a house). If I'm shooting at someone, it's truly a desperate situation and I'll take my chances. |
July 6, 2019, 11:55 AM | #35 |
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"...Bookshelves full of books do a..." No, they don't. Don't believe what you see on YouTube either.
"...how do you weigh that risk..." If you hit anything or anybody with a bullet that goes through a wall, you are guilty of a felony. Kill somebody and that felony is manslaughter or 2nd degree murder depending on where you are. Kill somebody's dog and you'll be sued(and lose) into next year. You are 100% responsible for where every bullet you fire ends up.
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July 6, 2019, 12:46 PM | #36 |
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How about Ye Old 38 Special WC ? Or the old 200 grain "Super Police" load.
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July 6, 2019, 01:33 PM | #37 |
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possibly some alternatives
I see the police on Live PD using a bean bag shotgun and a pepper ball ,paint ball gun. These might work providing they are backed up by a pistol, shotgun or rifle. Tasers seem to fail often especially with thick clothing. A crossbow will blow right through sheet rock.
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July 6, 2019, 03:45 PM | #38 | ||
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Quote:
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This time you posted the same bad information twice in response to the same comment. And you’re wrong yet again — stacked books do an excellent job of stopping bullets. Newspapers aren’t the same as books. Usually you need less than a foot of books depending on the density of the books and the type and velocity of bullet. Try it. I have many times.
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July 7, 2019, 12:06 AM | #39 |
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Wow I honestly wasn’t expecting to get such a diverse response. I’ll definitely take all of your responses into consideration and play with a couple options at the range. Probably ask my manager if they know if there’s concrete between the walls as well.
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July 7, 2019, 01:49 AM | #40 | |
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Fenris, let me ask you a question. Does your apartment have a concrete firewall between the apartments? find out and if you do have a firewall, your problems are over. Oh, and if you don't have a concrete firewall get your lazy butt out of there and find an apartment that has concrete firewalls in between both the apartments and the individual rooms and all front walls. don't forget concrete floors on each level. Just for common information, when I tested, a .38 special wadcutter penetrated a wall. Through the stud. two sheets of drywall and a four foot wide stud. Yes, that thing still had the energy left to plop through half inch plywood. Barely. A skull is softer than plywood. A general rule that you can think of is that high velocity and low weight rounds tend to penetrate less compared to heavier bullets of similar or lower velocities. High velocity is expended in destruction. It will tear the wood fibers up worse, and not slip through them. This is supported at least for me in the fact that I tested them. I used a load of .38 rounds and a lot of wood with drywall shooting through them for the sole purpose of learning what you are asking. But, don't take me as an absolute authority. My experience may not mirror what others have experienced, and I don't want to get into a urinating match with anyone.
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July 7, 2019, 01:05 PM | #41 | |
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Quote:
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0331: "Accuracy by volume." |
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July 7, 2019, 02:32 PM | #42 |
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Practice & be sure of what you are shooting at, hit your intended target, AKA belly shots.
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July 7, 2019, 04:22 PM | #43 | |
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Quote:
The bookshelf full of books certainly did well in the test. Do you think the test on YouTube was faked? Why would the shooter fake such a test? Why should I trust you typing on the Internet over a test I can see performed on camera? |
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July 7, 2019, 10:20 PM | #44 | |
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the overlords of the world wide information denial system want you to stop asking stupid questions and do what you are told. Go watch a video about twerking kittens and stop trying to solve complicated problems... BTW, from my research, don't use cinder blocks as bookends. They can be messed up pretty well by any heavy bullet .38 special in my experience. Bookend your cases with sandbags.
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July 14, 2019, 05:42 PM | #45 |
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One of the things people seem to forget about when it comes to wall penetration is that, unless you live in a destitute area where people don't own furniture, there's usually furniture in other rooms. Cabinets, bookcases, dressers, chairs, couches, doors, appliances, etc. On the off chance you miss a shot and it goes through the wall, there's a very high chance that the bullet will hit something like those things that will stop it or slow it significantly and a low chance it will hit a person.
That said, if I'm in that type of situation where wall penetration is a concern, I use as light weight a bullet I can get that also is able to penetrate tissue deep enough to be effective, so no Liberty Civil Defense for me, I like the Inceptor ammo more.
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July 26, 2019, 09:42 PM | #46 |
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I use DRT HP for my personal defense rounds. I have found that they will stop in an apartment. Long story to include a negligent discharge. Went into my floor, subfloor and stopped without going into my downstairs neighbors living room. If I'd rather have ammo that will transfer all of its energy into it's intended target then over penetrate.
Last edited by laymenshooter; July 26, 2019 at 09:50 PM. |
July 26, 2019, 11:11 PM | #47 | |
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A bullet that transfers all its energy and does not exit might be considered the ideal, but what if that still results in failure to stop the attack? Like wise a bullet that penetrates completely can also fail to stop the attack but you do have the potential benefit of two holes for the juice to leak out, rather than one. Downside? if it exits the bad guy, it could penetrate something else. There's no free lunch, you need to decide which factors matter most, in your personal situation, and choose accordingly. I live in the country in a house that includes concrete and stone walls in some of the interior walls as well as the exterior and no other people in line of sight for over 200 yards. I want something that will reliably poke a hole all the way through anyone I need to shoot. If I lived in a cardboard box with people on all side and above and below on the other side of a couple of cardboard walls (and I have lived in those kinds of places), my choice would be quite different.
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All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
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July 27, 2019, 03:29 PM | #48 |
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OP,
There is no ammo that will reliably stop a threat and not go through thin walls should you miss. Learn to shoot straight. |
July 28, 2019, 01:12 AM | #49 |
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walls, floors and motel rooms
Regards bullets through floors and walls. I can probably put my fist through a sheet piece of drywall. I cannot put my fist through a sheet of plywood. I'm not surprised that flooring stopped a bullet, it's just plain stronger and tougher than a typical 2x4 /gypsum interior wall. Comprised of a floor covering and a plywood sub-floor, there is no comparison to typical interior wall. I'm glad your downstairs neighbor didn't get shot, but walls and floors are not constructed equally and are not a valid comparison for penetration.
I've spent some time thinking about SD shootings in a motel room, where distances will be short, and there well may be occupants on either side and below. I believe any acceptable handgun cartridge will sail right through a motel room wall, easy. Same of course for buckshot/slugs, and I would think most all .223 ammo. My solution in those locales, once established indoors, is indeed a takedown 12 ga with heavy birdshot, not anemic 1 oz loads of fine shot, but 1-1/4 oz loads of #4. I'd might use #2 if I could find it anymore in 2-3/4" shells, but cannot. Were I living in a situation where circumstances were similar, as in an apartment complex, I'd go the same route. Though I hesitate to reference this as proof, a guy named Harrel has a video channel of shooting what he calls a "meat target" at short distances with assorted bird shot. It's an interesting video. |
July 28, 2019, 02:51 AM | #50 | |
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As to the OP, aside from the construction questions already posted, I would recommend a suitably loaded rifle or shotgun for home defense (less risk of penetrating walls if you hit the attacker first, and long guns are easier to be accurate with). Additionally, if your defense plan does not include moving, you can add furniture like heavy book shelves to provide a better backstop. If you don't have to move in a defensive situation, it is much easier to defend a funnel/choke point, and easier to prepare a safe/safer backstop. |
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