What would you have done?

Nevada Fitch · December 23, 2000, 11:59 PM

This happened to two of my men on their lunch break.They went to a chinese food place for lunch.And while standed in line a fight started between two skinheads with lots of tatoos and an old man.The skinheads had the old man down in the floor.One was setting on top of him beating him in the face and the other was kicking the old man in the ribs.There was several men sitting a various tables and not doing a thing to stop this.My two hands that work under me took on the skinheads and got thing broke up.The skinheads made a lot of threats and left.The police were called but I think my men went ahead and left before they got there.My men were a bit upset because no one else lifted a hand to stop this.I don't know what started to fight,and I wasn't there.My question is what would you have done if you were there? I have herd this is tipical of what happens in big cities sometimes.people will just look the other way and let someone get beat to death and do nothing.

iso1 · December 24, 2000, 06:06 AM

Simple. I'd have drawn down on the little bastards and held them for police. Demand that they be charged with attempted murder.

**4V50 Gary** · December 25, 2000, 12:02 PM

Your men responded appropriately. Two to one? C'mon, and to top it, two young men against an old man. Unless the old man was some sort of Oriental martial artist, I'd say it was an unfair and cowardly fight.

People use to be more involved but today we've grown reluctant to help our fellow citizens out. Part of this is because we've been trained that it's "someone else's problem" and "let the cops handle it." Well, society is what we make of it.

Consider how it was before we had police. We had a sheriff and he had very few deputies. People had a moral and legal obligation to assist one another and unless it was a heinous crime (murder, arson and the like), the criminal was humiliated in public (stockade, tar & feathers) and ran out of town (and ostracized).

Now, with the adoption of police, we gradually shifted the burden of protection onto them and citizen participation began to drop. Toss in civil liability and it is little wonder why anyone will not get involved. The sprial decline continues until people reassumes moral responsibility for each other. The police are only here to help us protect ourselves. The primary responsibility of public safety belongs to we, the people. When criminals know that they are not appreciated and are scorned (some people idolize them), and that their conduct will result in harm to themselves, then they have to reconsider the "risk" and "benefits" of such conduct.

I know quite a few "knights in shining armor" who are just good citizens and am not ashamed to admit that a few strangers have stopped and assisted me (in uniform and in a fight) in making an arrest. I have done it myself while off duty (didn't flash a badge or assert official authority). Your guys did right and you should be proud of them.

Art Eatman · December 26, 2000, 06:33 PM

I ain't the world's youngest or spryest, but I would have done my best to dropkick one of those skinhead's ribs way beyond Tom Dempsey's best fieldgoal. Or kidney or head or crotch--whatever's below waist height...

Two younguns on one old guy? Rules? What rules?

Art

cuerno de chivo · December 26, 2000, 06:46 PM

Erick and 4V50,

If the cops had showed up, would the 2 good guys have went to jail with the skinheads? Or just physically detaind, handcuffed and questioned there?

Gary H · December 26, 2000, 08:31 PM

called the police and stayed out of it. The problem as I see it is liability. There isn't much today that has to do with right and wrong. Fifteen years ago, I would have jumped in. I was involved in a few such instances, where I jumped into the fray. Today, everything is different. It seems to me that to jump in with these characters would require an all or nothing effort, which would probably land the good guy in jail. I think this had a lot to do with your workers taking off. Actually, that was a smart move. If someone attacks me, or my family that is a different matter and I don't expect any help. The world sucks and I've fallen prey to it.

animal · December 26, 2000, 11:09 PM

Put the buggers on the ground and leave before the cops get there.
1)Common decency demands that you intervene.
2)If you thrash them, you will have to answer a lot of questions. Whether or not you are charged with a crime depends on the cops who arrive.
3)If the BGs are minors, you WILL be in trouble for hurting the "misguided youth".

iso1 · December 27, 2000, 03:27 AM

Erick and Fitch,

sorry....I just automatically assume that everyone is armed.

If unarmed, that WONTON soup in your hand is usually pretty damned hot.....

I may have gotten my ass kicked, but I would have jumped in, if for no other reason than to keep them from beating on the older gentleman. I think they did the right thing, except if they could have they should ahve held the BGs for the cops.

Juveniles, my rear....if they're old enought to attack an elderly man, they're old enough to take a few kicks to the head...or eat some lead!

Dave R · December 27, 2000, 11:14 AM

Isol, I don't believe it would be legal to draw on the punks in the situation described. No threat to your life, so no legal reason to defend yourself. However, I think it may be legal to:

1) Tell the punks to stop.
2) Attempt to intervene to break it up.
3) If the punks then attack or threaten you, you have a right to defend yourself.

Anyone agree/disagree?

iso1 · December 27, 2000, 11:22 AM

Quote:

NRS 200.160 Additional cases of justifiable homicide. Homicide is also justifiable when committed:

1. In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished;

May not be that way in other places, but here in Nevada we are allowed to protect our fellow people when necessary, and I'd say the situation as described would definitely fall into that category. And there is no mention anywhere of a requirement by the defender to ask the criminal to cease and desist, alhtough that would of course be the best choice to make.

As several people have said, know the law....so I learned....

Trouble · December 27, 2000, 11:46 AM

iso1, Dave R:

Can't speak for other areas of the country, but in NY and in Virginia, you are justified in using deadly force in defense of another person whose life is in danger. Two young skinheads v. one old man? Sounds like a life threatening situation to me. Draw down if you're packing.

Personally, since I can't carry legally in DC where I work, I'd beat them 'till they couldn't even suffer.

Regards,

Trouble

Dave R · December 27, 2000, 01:22 PM

Isol & Trouble, thanks for the info. I obviously need to check out my state law. I'm surprised and pleased that the law recognizes our need to look out for one another.

cuerno de chivo · December 27, 2000, 01:35 PM

and if they don't stop when you draw down on them?

Steel · December 27, 2000, 01:39 PM

You would have to hold me back from flaying on the p...y customers that stood by, doing nothing! Anyone sitting around while an innocent victim gets pounded is a total loser weasel of a person. I don't care if you are armed or whatever - cowards WILL answer to the Lord for being so selfish. How about some basic warrior code. I would feel a LOT better mending my physical wounds, having rescued a victim, than to live with my wounded conscience for allowing such an injustice. Cowards suck!!!

Trouble · December 27, 2000, 02:47 PM

Dave R:

No problem.

c. de c.:

Having never been in this situation, I won't pretend to know exactly what I'd do. The best I can offer is this...

I was taught never to draw a weapon in a situation such as this unless I was fully prepared to use it and follow through, i.e. shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. The old man in this case is clearly in danger of sustaining serious if not fatal injuries. Intervention in this case is not only legally justified but morally imperative. I sincerely hope that I would do the right thing.

If you draw and command them to stop, you're commited. No time for half-measures. If they don't stop, shoot until the threats are no longer threats. If you're not prepared to do that, then you shouldn't have drawn in the first place.

My 1/50th of a dollar, anyway.

Regards,

Trouble

cuerno de chivo · December 27, 2000, 03:37 PM

I wonder what the exact age disparity was and who started the fight?

Nevada Fitch · December 27, 2000, 09:47 PM

The old man was around sixty maybe sixty-five. The bad guys were maybe 19 to 22 approx. No info on who started the fight or why.

animal · December 28, 2000, 12:22 AM

19 - 22 ? They're meat. Once you tell them to stop and they don't, they are fair game.
As to who started it : I'm prejudiced ... as far as I'm concerned, skinheads and gang bangers are considered to be in the wrong until proven different. Now, a fight between skinheads and bangers ... I'll sip on a Coca Cola and watch.

falconer · December 28, 2000, 01:38 AM

Something similar to this happened to someone I know about quite a few years back. Two young punks attacked an old man. However, the old man in question was my extremely irretable (and mean) Shuai Chiao teacher. When the cops arrived on scene, they looked at the two bloodied guys and told them how lucky they were to be alive.

riddleofsteel · December 28, 2000, 06:31 PM

here in N.C. you are allowed to use deadly force if...
a reasonable person would believe that

1. that your life is in danger
2. that you are in danger of grevious bodily harm
3. that the life of another is in danger
4. that the person your are defending is in danger of grevious bodily harm
5. to prevent rape or sexual assualt
6. to prevent felonious entry to an occupied dwelling if the occupant reasonably believes that that entry would cause any of the above crimes.

i would say that in this instance reason four is in force. even then the law requires that you exercise reasonable care and exhaust every means to solve the situation without snuffing the BG's.

i was in a similar situation that developed after a car wreck ahead of me at a stop light. the people involved in the wreck exchanged words that included a few racial slurs. a fight broke out. i was content to watch until i observed a black man holding a young white woman by the arms as his latino female companion beat her in the face and abdomen. i approached the scene with my cell phone out. i told them i had called 911 and the cops were on the way. i told the man in a loud voice that he was to release the young lady and step back. he did release her and approached me waving his arms. likewise the attacking female approached me cursing and swearing. i told them to stay back and instructed the young woman they were attacking to run for the curb market nearby. in the meantime a passer by saw the trouble and stopped. he called out to me (the victim, the passer by and i were the only white people within a mile i think) to see if i need help. i said "Yes come quick!!" he removed a ball bat from his truck and stood by me. at that point the attckers grew very enraged and starting calling to the crowd that was gathering to help them pull us down. i reached down and exposed my S&W 4006 in its holster. then i put my hand on it and told them if they approached i would fire. not only did the crowd disperse, the attackers backed up, WAY UP. they were still cursing but they we no longer a threat. i covered the weapon and waited for the cops. 15 minutes latter a brief explanation of the situation to the cops and a written statement and i was on my way. the little girl i saved thanked me. we still exchange Christmas cards.

bullfrog99 · December 29, 2000, 12:48 AM

drawing iron would be a bad thing, both from a legal perspective, and that generally such punks are armed with someting. this may seem a good reason to pull a piece, but if you do then some stupid prosicuting attorny will make them look like poor school children playing with their dads gun, and you looking like rambo with a need to kill. my suggestion, properly introduce their reproductive oragans to your shoes and if their is a group either hit the mouthy one(the leader) or the big one(the muscle) either one will make the group pause to reconcider, assuming that they fall down. if they jump you? start ripping out eyeballs and biting off fingers, either one while minimal in effort will definately cause a not drugged up opponant to stop their current actions( emotional trauma from loosing a body part or ones sight.) if all els fails, the soup idea sounded good!

December 25, 2000, 12:02 PM	#3
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	My social commentary of the day. Your men responded appropriately. Two to one? C'mon, and to top it, two young men against an old man. Unless the old man was some sort of Oriental martial artist, I'd say it was an unfair and cowardly fight. People use to be more involved but today we've grown reluctant to help our fellow citizens out. Part of this is because we've been trained that it's "someone else's problem" and "let the cops handle it." Well, society is what we make of it. Consider how it was before we had police. We had a sheriff and he had very few deputies. People had a moral and legal obligation to assist one another and unless it was a heinous crime (murder, arson and the like), the criminal was humiliated in public (stockade, tar & feathers) and ran out of town (and ostracized). Now, with the adoption of police, we gradually shifted the burden of protection onto them and citizen participation began to drop. Toss in civil liability and it is little wonder why anyone will not get involved. The sprial decline continues until people reassumes moral responsibility for each other. The police are only here to help us protect ourselves. The primary responsibility of public safety belongs to we, the people. When criminals know that they are not appreciated and are scorned (some people idolize them), and that their conduct will result in harm to themselves, then they have to reconsider the "risk" and "benefits" of such conduct. I know quite a few "knights in shining armor" who are just good citizens and am not ashamed to admit that a few strangers have stopped and assisted me (in uniform and in a fight) in making an arrest. I have done it myself while off duty (didn't flash a badge or assert official authority). Your guys did right and you should be proud of them.

December 26, 2000, 08:31 PM	#6
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	I would have called the police and stayed out of it. The problem as I see it is liability. There isn't much today that has to do with right and wrong. Fifteen years ago, I would have jumped in. I was involved in a few such instances, where I jumped into the fray. Today, everything is different. It seems to me that to jump in with these characters would require an all or nothing effort, which would probably land the good guy in jail. I think this had a lot to do with your workers taking off. Actually, that was a smart move. If someone attacks me, or my family that is a different matter and I don't expect any help. The world sucks and I've fallen prey to it.

December 28, 2000, 06:31 PM	#20
riddleofsteel Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2000 Location: above ground Posts: 1,558	GREETINGS here in N.C. you are allowed to use deadly force if... a reasonable person would believe that 1. that your life is in danger 2. that you are in danger of grevious bodily harm 3. that the life of another is in danger 4. that the person your are defending is in danger of grevious bodily harm 5. to prevent rape or sexual assualt 6. to prevent felonious entry to an occupied dwelling if the occupant reasonably believes that that entry would cause any of the above crimes. i would say that in this instance reason four is in force. even then the law requires that you exercise reasonable care and exhaust every means to solve the situation without snuffing the BG's. i was in a similar situation that developed after a car wreck ahead of me at a stop light. the people involved in the wreck exchanged words that included a few racial slurs. a fight broke out. i was content to watch until i observed a black man holding a young white woman by the arms as his latino female companion beat her in the face and abdomen. i approached the scene with my cell phone out. i told them i had called 911 and the cops were on the way. i told the man in a loud voice that he was to release the young lady and step back. he did release her and approached me waving his arms. likewise the attacking female approached me cursing and swearing. i told them to stay back and instructed the young woman they were attacking to run for the curb market nearby. in the meantime a passer by saw the trouble and stopped. he called out to me (the victim, the passer by and i were the only white people within a mile i think) to see if i need help. i said "Yes come quick!!" he removed a ball bat from his truck and stood by me. at that point the attckers grew very enraged and starting calling to the crowd that was gathering to help them pull us down. i reached down and exposed my S&W 4006 in its holster. then i put my hand on it and told them if they approached i would fire. not only did the crowd disperse, the attackers backed up, WAY UP. they were still cursing but they we no longer a threat. i covered the weapon and waited for the cops. 15 minutes latter a brief explanation of the situation to the cops and a written statement and i was on my way. the little girl i saved thanked me. we still exchange Christmas cards. __________________ For him there was always the discipline of steel.

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December 23, 2000, 11:59 PM	#1
Nevada Fitch Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2000 Posts: 261	This happened to two of my men on their lunch break.They went to a chinese food place for lunch.And while standed in line a fight started between two skinheads with lots of tatoos and an old man.The skinheads had the old man down in the floor.One was setting on top of him beating him in the face and the other was kicking the old man in the ribs.There was several men sitting a various tables and not doing a thing to stop this.My two hands that work under me took on the skinheads and got thing broke up.The skinheads made a lot of threats and left.The police were called but I think my men went ahead and left before they got there.My men were a bit upset because no one else lifted a hand to stop this.I don't know what started to fight,and I wasn't there.My question is what would you have done if you were there? I have herd this is tipical of what happens in big cities sometimes.people will just look the other way and let someone get beat to death and do nothing.

December 24, 2000, 06:06 AM	#2
iso1 Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2000 Location: Reno, Nevada Posts: 573	Simple. I'd have drawn down on the little bastards and held them for police. Demand that they be charged with attempted murder.

December 26, 2000, 06:33 PM	#4
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I ain't the world's youngest or spryest, but I would have done my best to dropkick one of those skinhead's ribs way beyond Tom Dempsey's best fieldgoal. Or kidney or head or crotch--whatever's below waist height... Two younguns on one old guy? Rules? What rules? Art

December 26, 2000, 06:46 PM	#5
cuerno de chivo Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Posts: 919	Erick and 4V50, If the cops had showed up, would the 2 good guys have went to jail with the skinheads? Or just physically detaind, handcuffed and questioned there?

December 26, 2000, 11:09 PM	#7
animal Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2000 Location: Mississippi Posts: 705	Put the buggers on the ground and leave before the cops get there. 1)Common decency demands that you intervene. 2)If you thrash them, you will have to answer a lot of questions. Whether or not you are charged with a crime depends on the cops who arrive. 3)If the BGs are minors, you WILL be in trouble for hurting the "misguided youth".

December 27, 2000, 03:27 AM	#8
iso1 Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2000 Location: Reno, Nevada Posts: 573	Erick and Fitch, sorry....I just automatically assume that everyone is armed. If unarmed, that WONTON soup in your hand is usually pretty damned hot..... I may have gotten my ass kicked, but I would have jumped in, if for no other reason than to keep them from beating on the older gentleman. I think they did the right thing, except if they could have they should ahve held the BGs for the cops. Juveniles, my rear....if they're old enought to attack an elderly man, they're old enough to take a few kicks to the head...or eat some lead!

December 27, 2000, 11:14 AM	#9
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	Isol, I don't believe it would be legal to draw on the punks in the situation described. No threat to your life, so no legal reason to defend yourself. However, I think it may be legal to: 1) Tell the punks to stop. 2) Attempt to intervene to break it up. 3) If the punks then attack or threaten you, you have a right to defend yourself. Anyone agree/disagree?

December 27, 2000, 11:46 AM	#11
Trouble Member Join Date: September 2, 2000 Posts: 87	iso1, Dave R: Can't speak for other areas of the country, but in NY and in Virginia, you are justified in using deadly force in defense of another person whose life is in danger. Two young skinheads v. one old man? Sounds like a life threatening situation to me. Draw down if you're packing. Personally, since I can't carry legally in DC where I work, I'd beat them 'till they couldn't even suffer. Regards, Trouble

December 27, 2000, 01:22 PM	#12
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	Isol & Trouble, thanks for the info. I obviously need to check out my state law. I'm surprised and pleased that the law recognizes our need to look out for one another.

December 27, 2000, 01:35 PM	#13
cuerno de chivo Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Posts: 919	and if they don't stop when you draw down on them?

December 27, 2000, 01:39 PM	#14
Steel Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 504	You would have to hold me back from flaying on the p...y customers that stood by, doing nothing! Anyone sitting around while an innocent victim gets pounded is a total loser weasel of a person. I don't care if you are armed or whatever - cowards WILL answer to the Lord for being so selfish. How about some basic warrior code. I would feel a LOT better mending my physical wounds, having rescued a victim, than to live with my wounded conscience for allowing such an injustice. Cowards suck!!!

December 27, 2000, 02:47 PM	#15
Trouble Member Join Date: September 2, 2000 Posts: 87	Dave R: No problem. c. de c.: Having never been in this situation, I won't pretend to know exactly what I'd do. The best I can offer is this... I was taught never to draw a weapon in a situation such as this unless I was fully prepared to use it and follow through, i.e. shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. The old man in this case is clearly in danger of sustaining serious if not fatal injuries. Intervention in this case is not only legally justified but morally imperative. I sincerely hope that I would do the right thing. If you draw and command them to stop, you're commited. No time for half-measures. If they don't stop, shoot until the threats are no longer threats. If you're not prepared to do that, then you shouldn't have drawn in the first place. My 1/50th of a dollar, anyway. Regards, Trouble

December 27, 2000, 03:37 PM	#16
cuerno de chivo Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Posts: 919	I wonder what the exact age disparity was and who started the fight?

December 27, 2000, 09:47 PM	#17
Nevada Fitch Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2000 Posts: 261	The old man was around sixty maybe sixty-five. The bad guys were maybe 19 to 22 approx. No info on who started the fight or why.

December 28, 2000, 12:22 AM	#18
animal Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2000 Location: Mississippi Posts: 705	19 - 22 ? They're meat. Once you tell them to stop and they don't, they are fair game. As to who started it : I'm prejudiced ... as far as I'm concerned, skinheads and gang bangers are considered to be in the wrong until proven different. Now, a fight between skinheads and bangers ... I'll sip on a Coca Cola and watch.

December 28, 2000, 01:38 AM	#19
falconer Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: somewhere Posts: 546	Something similar to this happened to someone I know about quite a few years back. Two young punks attacked an old man. However, the old man in question was my extremely irretable (and mean) Shuai Chiao teacher. When the cops arrived on scene, they looked at the two bloodied guys and told them how lucky they were to be alive.

December 29, 2000, 12:48 AM	#21
bullfrog99 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2000 Location: Southeast Michigan Posts: 811	drawing iron would be a bad thing, both from a legal perspective, and that generally such punks are armed with someting. this may seem a good reason to pull a piece, but if you do then some stupid prosicuting attorny will make them look like poor school children playing with their dads gun, and you looking like rambo with a need to kill. my suggestion, properly introduce their reproductive oragans to your shoes and if their is a group either hit the mouthy one(the leader) or the big one(the muscle) either one will make the group pause to reconcider, assuming that they fall down. if they jump you? start ripping out eyeballs and biting off fingers, either one while minimal in effort will definately cause a not drugged up opponant to stop their current actions( emotional trauma from loosing a body part or ones sight.) if all els fails, the soup idea sounded good!