Browning Hi Power How do you carry?

[Lancerdad34]

Since I got my CPL I have been trying to find the most comfortable and safe way to carry. So far I am working on safety of hammer down. I find in dry fire practice it is quicker and easier to leave the safety off and pull the hammer back than have the hammer back safety on. I just wondered how all you other guys ( and Girls) carry your Hi Power.

Thanks,
Brian in snowy MI

[Whirlwind06]

Condition 1 is how SA pistols are normally carried. Sweeping the safety off is much quicker then cocking it during the draw.

[44caliberkid]

Cocked and locked, just like JMB designed it for.

[dogtown tom]

44caliberkid Cocked and locked, just like JMB designed it for.

JMB didn't design the Hi Power, Dieudonné Saive did.

[HighValleyRanch]

I am making some grips and a holster for a friend's hi power. He installed this neat "kit" for the safety and hammer. When you chamber a round, the hammer being back, you push on the back of the hammer and it lowers safely and engages the safety in the up position. So now you have a round chambered with the hammer down.
In order to fire, you simple press the safety down and it automatically cocks the hammer back ready to fire. I saw on the internet that this sort of kit is available for both the hi power and 1911 platforms. Had never seen one like this before.

[dahermit]

Originally Posted by Lancerdad34

Since I got my CPL I have been trying to find the most comfortable and safe way to carry. So far I am working on safety of hammer down. I find in dry fire practice it is quicker and easier to leave the safety off and pull the hammer back than have the hammer back safety on. I just wondered how all you other guys ( and Girls) carry your Hi Power.

Thanks,
Brian in snowy MI

The Askin's Avenger has been a traditional method of carrying HP's (and fits 1911's also) for many years.
https://www.galcogunleather.com/aven..._8_4_1023.html

Here is a copy of the Askin's Avenger I made sometime back. I has the removable hammer strap of his original and I added a Kangaroo hide lining to mine. One can choose to use the hammer strap or to snap it off and just use the ambient friction to hold the gun in. As I remember, the Askin's Avenger was designed to be a rapid draw holster. Note: the pics are informational only...I am not selling anything.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by dogtown tom

JMB didn't design the Hi Power, Dieudonné Saive did.

Well -- John Browning started the design, but he died before it was finished. Dieudonné Saive took over and saw the design through to completion.

I carry my 1911s cocked and locked. If I were to carry a Hi-Power, I would carry it the same way. I cannot imagine any way in which it might be faster to cock the hammer while drawing and presenting than to simply swipe off the thumb safety upon drawing. I know that's what the OP wrote but my experience in over 50 years with the 1911 tells me that's impossible.

[Japle]

I totally agree with Aguila. Trying to thumb-cock a HP under the pressure of a fight requires more dexterity that you may have on tap. There's simply no good reason not to carry it cocked-and-locked.
I carried a HP for about six years before going to striker-fired guns. My HP is in the shop right now, because it decided one day that it wanted to be a sub-machine-gun. When I get it back, I'll probably pack it for a while.

[AK103K]

I just bought a nice, older HP earlier this year that thought it was a SMG too.

First round fired into the ground in front of me when I dropped the slide, and the hammer followed the slide down. Dumb bunny that I am, I thumb cocked it and squeezed off another, and got a 4-5 round burst.

The boy who traded it in needs a boot up his ass too. The gun was dangerous and he never said a word. Appears he thought he was a gunsmith and did some kind of a trigger job on it. Luckily, they are easy to work on and he only screwed up a couple of parts. A new sear and spring, and its as good as new.

If I were to carry one again, Id look for something in an AIWB holster, or maybe a Milt Sparks VMII or similar, if appendix carry bothers you.

[rodfac]

That Askins Avenger is the way to go...I too have built a cpl and it's a fine holster for OWB use...keeps the butt in close to your torso, minimizing gun print and rides high enough so the muzzle isn't visible a cpl inches below the belt line.

I have two HP's and carry them in condition 1. Cocked and locked, but the safety is hard to find and more difficult to disengage, even on the modern types... it's slower than any 1911 I've carried over the years. But I've broken both of my thumbs over the years and don't have all the mobility that's normal.

And BTW, that Avenger type holster is just as good with a 1911 saddled up as it is with the HP. It's my #1 choice for either & I use 'em without the safety strap, tho I've included one on the holsters I've built. It snaps on and off to the button, recessed on the back...same as the Bianchi.

Dehermit's and the ones illustrated in Galco's pic look to be straight up and down in the pic. I build them with ~a 7 degree cant as I like the gun back in the 3:30-4:00 position...with the cant there, I can get a firm firing grip while the gun is still in the leather. Lined, boned, stained and hand stitched, they take all day to make but the ease of carry & comfort makes the time well spent.

Here are a few pics showing the cant. The tan one is a Bianchi #4L which works for a 1911 or the HP. The black number is one of my own, with a Sig 4"bbl'd 1911 in it, also used with my HP's. HTH's Rod

[HighValleyRanch]

This is or identical to the kit my friend install:
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/shooters.shtml
It's made for the Browning Hi Power called a Safety fast shooting kit.

[4V50 Gary]

Cocked and locked. Thumbreak holster for additional safety.

[1MoreFord]

Condition one in a Sparks SS.

[P-35HP]

Before this post degrades into the usual passionate and useless "Condition 1 vs. Condition 2 vs. Condition 3 carry" argument, I would point out that the Colt 1911 was developed in response to the US military requierment and the "Grande Puissance ", Hi -Power, P35, HP35 or the Browning HP as it is known here in the US, was developed in response to a French military requirement.
Neither one of those militaries required a handgun specifically designed as to be carried "Cocked and Locked" as a matter of routine.
In my opinion, the assumption that the designers specifically designed those two handguns to be carried C&L is speculative and most likely far from the truth.
Regarding the issue on hand, I would suggest OP contact one of the the many fine firearm training institutions ( example: Massad Ayoob Group, P.O. Box 1477,Live Oak, FL 32064, [email protected]) and book a class. People like Massad are more than qualified to answer all the technical and tactical questions as well as demonstrate and teach all aspects related to firearms ownership.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by P-35HP

Before this post degrades into the usual passionate and useless "Condition 1 vs. Condition 2 vs. Condition 3 carry" argument, I would point out that the Colt 1911 was developed in response to the US military requierment and the "Grande Puissance ", Hi -Power, P35, HP35 or the Browning HP as it is known here in the US, was developed in response to a French military requirement.
Neither one of those militaries required a handgun specifically designed as to be carried "Cocked and Locked" as a matter of routine.
In my opinion, the assumption that the designers specifically designed those two handguns to be carried C&L is speculative and most likely far from the truth.

The M1911 was designed for the United States military as a military sidearm. One of the old jokes about how to win a fight is to bring a gun, and invite all your friends to bring their guns. In the military, whenever soldiers find themselves in situations where/when they may need a gun, they usually have a bunch of friends nearby who also have guns. When you or I leave home and venture forth onto the mean streets of the Yoo Ess of Ay, we can't rely on having a bunch of friends to post sentry duty and give us a heads up before we are attacked. We're on our own (usually).

Where am I going with this? The original Colt/Browning 1910 prototype pistol didn't have a mechanical thumb safety. The thumb safety was added specifically at the request of the Ordnance Department.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Model_1910

http://www.coltautos.com/images/1910_5.jpg

IIRC, the Army wanted a thumb safety because the cavalry had to use one hand to control their horses. This meant if a cavalryman had to use his sidearm and then holster it, he needed a way to make the pistol safe using only one hand. That precluded manually lowering the hammer. So they requested a thumb safety, and Browning and Colt added a thumb safety.

The general mode of carry for sidearms in the military is either unloaded, or with a loaded magazine but an empty chamber. The following is quoted from Field Manual 23-35, Automatic Pistol, Cal. .45, M1911 and M1911A1:

METHOD OF OPERATION.-a. A loaded magazine is placed in the receiver and the slide drawn fully back and released, thus bringing the first cartridge into the chamber. (If the slide is open, push down the slide stop to let the slide go forward.) The hammer is thus cocked and the pistol is ready for firing.

b. If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel [NOTE: We don't do that these days, because experience has demonstrated that this damages the extractor], allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at full cock and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock (which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the pistol to the firing position.

I can't find it, but there's another field or training manual for the M1911 that references carrying cocked and locked "when the possibility of enemy action is imminent" (or something pretty close to that). So the military's idea is that, if you are authorized to be wearing a sidearm, your pistola is NOT carried ready to rock and roll when you are inside the wire. You load it and lock it "when the likelihood of enemy action is imminent."

But we are not in the Army, we are not inside a fortified and defended encampment area, and we are not surrounded by friends with guns. Muggers don't call ahead to make an appointment. When we are out on the mean streets, the whole point of carrying a gun is that the likelihood of "enemy action" is always imminent. We hope it won't happen but, if it does, it's going to happen like RIGHT NOW!

So the Ordnance Department did contemplate carrying cocked and locked, even though that's not their preferred mode of carry when enemy action is NOT imminent. When our guys go outside the wire on patrol, they carry cocked and locked. Why? Because Harry Hadji doesn't make appointments to attack American patrols.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Condition 1 is how SA pistols are normally carried. Sweeping the safety off is much quicker then cocking it during the draw.

^^This^^

Treat it just like a 1911. And carry it in a holster.

[jr24]

When I did carry the BHP I did cocked and locked in a Milt Sparks SS2 or criterion.

With how heavy the hammer spring is, and having a bad experience with decocking a 1911 years ago I personally would never consider carrying with one in the pipe, hammer down. Takes more work to thumb the hammer back than disengage the safety, especially if you refine your grip to include swiping the safety as a natural part of coming on target. You are adding a step that requires a different motion in a potentially crazy situation.

In addition each time you load the gun you are adding a major potential safety issue with manually lowering the hammer. Yes there are safe ways to do it (off hand thumb over the firing pin) but stuff happens, happened to me, despite doing it the "right" way, I screwed something up and put a .45 caliber hole in my floor. Thank goodness I followed the other rules and nothing but my pride was hurt.

Edit:. Also if you don't train and practice for use of the safety you are also opening yourself to the potential of engaging the safety accidentally and being completely unprepared to disengage it quickly and by instinct. My MKIII has the ambi safety levers and they aren't the most positive in clicking on and off, I've had the safety get bumped in the holster and get disengaged, so it's probable it could be accidentally engaged in a stressfully situation pretty easily. If you have the tiny old style safety, that might be less of a concern.

[rock185]

When the new Hi Powers started to appear with the spur hammer back around '70-'71 IIRC, a gun shop owner demonstrated whipping out and cocking the HP like a cowboy gunfighter with a SAA. I thought it impractical then, and still do. I've carried Hi Powers and 1911s a lot, always cocked and locked.

FWIW, I was issued a 1911A1 in the military, and got to shoot it a fair amount in RVN. We were instructed to carry it hammer down on an empty chamber. I didn't carry mine that way, but that was the approved manner. I don't think I stared to routinely carrying C & L until reading Jeff Cooper's stuff in the early '70s.

I've used a variety of holsters for the HP, but one of my favorites is the 453 Liberty made by the late Gordon Davis many years ago. I had him make the same holster for the 1911 and SIG. All still serviceable.

[JohnMoses]

You could always use the Mossad method. Condition 3 (chamber empty), draw the gun, ram it downward catching the rear sight on the holster and cocking & chambering a round. With practice, it's really quite fast, and 100% safe carry. No, I don't carry this way.

[Crankylove]

My Hipower (and 1911) get carried condition one in a thumb break holster.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by JohnMoses

You could always use the Mossad method. Condition 3 (chamber empty), draw the gun, ram it downward catching the rear sight on the holster and cocking & chambering a round.

I don't think that's actually how the Israeli Draw is executed.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/in...israeli-carry/

https://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot....ry-or-why.html

http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/a-br...e-mossad-draw/

https://pistol-training.com/archives/219

[Lancerdad34]

wow thanks for all the replies here! You have convinced me to go back to the cocked and locked! I just got the belly band holster which has a strap that goes under the hammer so I can carry is safely. Just have to get used to clicking off the safety hopefully will never need to do it in an emergency. Happy Thanksgiving to All!

Brian in Mi

[amd6547]

I carried various HiPowers for a couple decades. Most often, I used a simple clip-on leather scabbard worn IWB cross draw.
When I found I shot the G26 as well or better, I stopped carrying the Hipower.

[tipoc]

It's easier and more accurate to acknowledge that the 1911 and the BHP following the 1911, were built to be carried 3 ways. This was intentional and explained well by Aguila Blanca in post #15.

The U.S. military required those functions so JMB and Colt engineers (who were the best in the business in the U.S. at that time, by the way) made it so for the 1911.

Jeff Cooper, in the post war period, came up with the terms Condition one (cocked and locked), Condition 2 (hammer down on a live round) and Condition 3 (hammer down on an empty chamber). The Army had different terms, but these basic three were it. The military used all three.

Oh, a small piece of 1911 trivia: When the Army complained that it was hard to lower the hammer, and thus safely holster the gun with two hands while on a bucking horse, Browning came up with a modification that allowed the hammer to be lowered one handed. It proved not to be enough and so the thumb safety.

tipoc

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by tipoc

Oh, a small piece of 1911 trivia: When the Army complained that it was hard to lower the hammer, and thus safely holster the gun with two hands while on a bucking horse, Browning came up with a modification that allowed the hammer to be lowered one handed.

Correct. On a properly-configured 1911, pulling the hammer all the way back (beyond the full-cocked position) allows the hammer spur to depress the grip safety tang, thus releasing the trigger and allowing the hammer to be lowered -- if you can manage it without your thumb slipping off the hammer and discharging the firearm.