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Old July 12, 2009, 06:27 PM   #1
Farmland
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When it all goes so wrong

This is a 40 S&W fired out of my Beretta 96. This is the first reload in over 15 years that went bad. The first one and second one fired with no problems then came the third round.

I knew something was wrong pretty fast when some debris hit my face and I noticed black marks on my right hand. You have to love safety glasses. The case was still in the chamber minus the rim and head. The force of the pressure had partially knock out the side arm that connects the trigger to the firing pin.

I did a fast check of the gun then took it to the house. I was lucky the case came out with a small punch and was really stuck. The trigger spring had slipped off of the bar that puts the trigger into ready action for double action.

I took my time and replaced the spring and checked the slide, barrel and frame for any other damage. There was none that I could see. This was a long process searching for small cracks etc.

Now my attention went into what went wrong. My guess at the time was that the case did not chamber, I checked about 50 reloads in the barrel and everything was fine. Maybe it was this one case. I then took the gun outside and chambered one round from the magazine. I fired it and then that is when I found out my extractor was broken. So I loaded the magazine and tried to cycle the rounds through without firing. Yes the extractor was finished. It appears a small piece broke off.

I then checked the round I just fired and I will have to get a photo up but things were not right with the primer. The primer had expanded and was visitable larger. Though the firing pin mark wasn't really that much different. So now my suspicions are on the rounds that I just reloaded.

Since I am in doubt I will pull them 50 that I have left. I'm not sure went wrong but experience tells me the primer isn't right. I know it is the correct primer for sure. I only had small and large pistol primers around when I made these last week. I will check my powder weight when I pull the bullets.
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Last edited by Farmland; July 12, 2009 at 06:42 PM.
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Old July 12, 2009, 06:37 PM   #2
BillCA
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Farmland,

Looks like it discharged either with the gun out of battery (not locked up) -- or partially chambered as you describe it -- or there is insufficient support for the case head. Unless something has changed with the feed ramp, we'll presume there is adequate support for now.

Have you fired lead bullets lately? You might inspect teh chamber mouth where the case is supposed to headspace. If there is a buildup of lead or debris there, it can cause the case go stock before fully chambering.

Obviously, you need to check your powder weights. Could you have accidentally used a small pistol magnum primer?
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Old July 12, 2009, 07:17 PM   #3
VaFisher
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If I remember right I saw a post about Glock's and reloading with a pick of a round that looked very much like this one. Has something to do with the throat being worked to much for reloading the best I remember.
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Old July 12, 2009, 07:39 PM   #4
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Looks like it was fired out of battery to me. Look at how the case has flowed into the shape of the feed ramp.
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Old July 12, 2009, 07:44 PM   #5
Farmland
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Pay attention to the details is a very important point. I pulled a bullet and checked the powder weight. There was 6.5 grs of 231 in the shell. I was perplexed because I have never made such a large error. However the next 5 shells all had the same amount in them. As I was setting thinking about how I did this I hit the mode bullet on my new electronic scale. There was my problem I was measuring the powder in the wrong scale setting. I was now a full 1.3 grains over the maximum.

It was the primer that lead me to question the powder settings, I have never seen a primer like the one I did today in that 40 that I fired.

I'm pretty sure the brass was not the problem but the extremely high pressure was. I consider myself lucky that I only have a broken ejector. While I have given the pistol a very detailed visual inspection I will drop it off at the gunsmith for a second look. I will post the photo of the primer a little later tonight.

So my problem was two fold; working with something new such as the scale and not taking the time to notice where the decimal point was. It was simple to see it was in front of all of the numbers when a switched the mode today. That gave me a reading of something like .42 which of course was at the minimum powder charge.

This is a very good example of why you should never reload for other people. I only put myself at risk along with my gun.
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Old July 12, 2009, 08:25 PM   #6
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That's very interesting. Be glad your pistol isn't a blowback design - you might still be pulling pieces of slide and frame out of your cheekbone! Glad you're ok.
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Old July 12, 2009, 08:42 PM   #7
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Dude that sucks. I'm glad you didn't get hurt and your gun is OK.

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Old July 13, 2009, 07:07 AM   #8
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Use volume for charges.
Weight can vary, but volume will not.

Unless, of course, something goes wrong
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Old July 13, 2009, 11:11 PM   #9
highrolls
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Farmland, compare your photo to the first photo in this thread. Is your Beretta
a 96FS ?

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=357593

While it may seem to be an out of battery fire, looking at both case failures
side by side leads me to believe there is more to it than that.

I have not looked closely at the breech area of the Beretta 96. Is the case
fully supported in battery or is there a feed area machined out of the breech ?
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Old July 14, 2009, 12:59 AM   #10
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Farmland's case clearly shows the unsupported chamber mouth's profile. It is simply a case of excess pressure. I had a double-charge in a .45 ACP blow like that about 16 years ago.

If several of the excessive loads fired OK, I'll guess you might have had either a case with less capacity or a little bullet setback occurred during feeding that raised the pressure more? Take a micrometer and check the barrel diameter for a bulge. Mine picked up a couple thousandths just ahead of the chamber when it blew. Not enough to be dangerous, but enough to cause leading with cast bullets, so I replaced it.
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Old July 14, 2009, 02:02 PM   #11
Farmland
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Very interesting link, since I'm new I didn't know about it. It is the exact same result. In my case it was clearly a reloading error. I had too much powder which was confirmed by taking apart the remaining bullets. The over all length was the same and within the guidelines for the round.

I am pretty sure it was not an out of battery case. I fired three rounds the third blew. I examined the primer on the first two and it looked like a large pistol primer because of the pressure.

Note both cases were over the max powder though only one really flatten out.

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Old July 14, 2009, 02:28 PM   #12
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I thought I would recap a few things. I have been reloading since 1993 and I shot competitively for many of those years. I have reloaded every round that has went through this gun. The round count probably around 5-6 thousand in the gun which I mused as a limited gun.

The gun is a Beretta 96 bought new in 1995. This gun has never shot anything but lead. The round was a typical round that has been feed through this gun since 1995.

I had bought a new Lyman electronic scale. I was not paying attention the the mode that it was in and was not reading in grains. Thus I overloaded the rounds above max powder recommendations.

I had noticed the mode setting when loading some 25-06. It was easy when the powder over filled the case. At that point I remembered that I had reloaded some 40 S&W and to be honest I suspected the powder load in those cases may have been loaded wrong. However I soon forget to check them.

Fast forward one week later I am shooting my Colt 45 when I decided to check out the new loads for the 40 S&W. Yes I didn't remember about the powder problems with the scale. My years of experience should have made me pull the bullets the night I reloaded the 25-06. But it didn't and I soon forgot about the powder issues.

After the case blew up and I was sitting writing this post I remembered about the powder issue with the 25-06. So I went and pulled several 40 S&W rounds. There was the problem too much powder.

I sat back as I counted myself lucky and wondered how an experience reloaded could have made such a mistake. After all I am organized and careful to never take any shot cuts. The original mistake goes back to a new piece of equipment that I was not 100% use to the operation. The second mistake was not acting on the possible problem when I first thought of it while loading the 25-06 shells.

It goes to show you that when your mind drifts a little you can be in danger. Just because I'm experience and have loaded more than 50,000 pistol rounds since 1994 I am not beyond make a serious mistake.

I count my self lucky and will probably use two scales for awhile to check powder weights because when you have a part of the case fly back into your face that is life changing event. So I'm not ready to toss out the balance scale or stop reloading, however I think I will slow down a little when reloading and triple check a few things each time I reload.

Man that hurts to admit that I made a mistake because I am always so careful.
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Old July 14, 2009, 03:12 PM   #13
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Glad to hear that you weren't injured and thanks for the recap. I make it a point to check my scale with a set of check weights before every loading session. For example, if i am loading 5.2 gr. of powder, I'll set my (manual) scale to 5.0 gr. and put in the 5 gr. check weight. If I change calibers and need a new powder setting, I'll again set the scale and check it. My check weights include a 0.5 gr. weight, so I will round up or down to the nearest 0.5 gr. from my desired powder setting.

I feel this is more accurate than even zeroing the scale, although that would be a debate for new thread. Quality check weights aren't inexpensive, but I'm glad that I made the investment.

With your digital scale, checking with test weights should have alerted you to the incorrect mode setting. I also have a cheap digital scale that I don't use anymore, so I understand how easy it is to be in the wrong weight mode. (I'm assuming that is what happened.)

Thanks for the post, it's a much needed warning to all of us.
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Old July 14, 2009, 08:44 PM   #14
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Thanks for the photos and the description. I am glad you were not hurt. The more photos and incidents that are shared, the better the knowledge of the whole shooting community.

For all, I highly recommend buying a set of check weights. I am using a set of Lyman check weights in grains.

It never hurts, for a reality check, to toss one in the pan of your electronic scale and see what the readout says.

One other thing, the primer pictures. Same charge but one flat, one not. Sure tells you that expecting to make an informed decision from reading primers is right up there with Voodoo and palm reading.
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Old July 15, 2009, 10:36 AM   #15
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Okay, that's two people now looking at the primer photos and calling one flat and one not. What I am seeing is two cratered primers, both are clear signs of high pressure.

I agree that you can't learn everything from looking at primers. However, it's always been my argument that looking at primers in loads where every component is supposed to be the same (brass, primer, bullet and the platform it was launched from) and only the charge weight is the variable is definitely a good indicator of what is going on. Comparing a CCI primer in a 10mm case against a WLP in a .45 case is worthless and indicates not a single damn thing. But... looking at four 9mm cases, all Fed brass, all shot with the same supplier of 125gr LRN pushed by different charges of Bullseye, all using CCI 500 Small Pistol primers... then looking at the spent cases for primer indication DOES tell a bit of the tale.

Farmland, it's good for everyone that you've dissected what went wrong. Good for you, obviously, as the repetition of it will help to grind it in to your memory and good for all reading as an example of how things go wrong.

Was this ammo built on a progressive machine? (my guess since you shot competitively) Not that the machine is to blame, but I find that loading single stage and having a full tray of 50 rounds in front of you, all charged and ready to be inspected might be a bit easier to have a guaranteed visual on each charged round. Of course, if you are mis-reading your scale, you are stick f--ked in the same way...

I know that if I loaded .40 (I don't, but I do load 9, 10, and many others) that I could most likely see a full grain more in the case than what I'm accustomed to seeing as my "normal" load. Especially since you've put some 5 or 6 thousand through it. BUT... if my "normal" load was always being chucked through a progressive machine... I might not even know what the typical powder level looked like.

Again, not blaming the machine... just pointing out one of the benefits of single stage reloading that so many folks laugh at.
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Old July 15, 2009, 11:19 AM   #16
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Glad you're ok, THANKS for the thread and your candor and honesty. No one like to admit to mistakes, but you've made at lease ME more safety conscious! I've been reloading since 1978, and always susceptible to errors. Experience does not equal safety!
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