Why can't I hit a dove!

baddarryl · November 30, 2013, 01:16 PM

AAAAAAAAAAGH! 2nd time out. Using my son's Winchester 120 20ga with Imp Cyl. Using Rem STS #8 shot. I try to lead them, swing, put the sight right on them and nothing. First time out I got 2, second time 0! Guys in my party averaged about 5 this time and far more the first.

Only thing I can think of is that I didn't concentrate on a good cheek weld for proper sight alignment. I didn't think of this until after they quit flying of course. I was probably shooting low of them because of this. AAAAAAAAAGH!

.284 · November 30, 2013, 01:29 PM

Does someone need a cold beer and a chance to calm down?

I feel your pain......those little birds do have avoidance tactics like no other. Well, except Teal.....they anger me too.

globemaster3 · November 30, 2013, 03:28 PM

Teal with a tailwind... Probably the most challenging to hit in my book!

Do you have a skeet range nearby? Go run a few rounds and see how much better your bit percentage gets.

Also, if this gun is new to you, go pattern it! It would be nice to know if the combination of you and gun is not hitting where you think it is!

Best of luck! I've been in slumps like that where I had to work it out at the range.

baddarryl · November 30, 2013, 04:34 PM

Yes the gun is new to me and I have not patterned it. Good point. It is hard for me to find spare time to hit the range, but may have to soon if this keeps up!

Major Dave (retired) · November 30, 2013, 04:45 PM

you will always shoot behind them, using that technique.

Some people establish a constant lead, of about a yard, and continue the swing (follow through) after they pull the trigger. The amount of lead needed varies with the angle and speed of the bird's flight.

Another technique is to swing thru the target, pulling the trigger when your muzzle passes the bird, and continuing the swing.

I prefer the "swing thru" technique, as I could never guess how much "constant lead" various flight angles required.

I usually hit about one bird per 3 shots. I believe the national average is one bird per 7 shots. Once I got a 15 bird limit with a box of 25 shells. I was Happy, happy, happy!

All techniques require a good cheek weld on the stock, i.e., keep your head down.

Buzzcook · November 30, 2013, 05:05 PM

What Major Dave said. Swing through and past ahead the bird.

CarJunkieLS1 · November 30, 2013, 05:07 PM

Isn't it obvious your sons shotgun barrel is bent...

Hawg · November 30, 2013, 05:15 PM

If you want to know how bad you really shoot go dove hunting.

They are hard to hit so you're in good company but you got good advice on the swing and follow through. I don't think I'd try it with a 20 gauge. I always used a 12 gauge when I went but that's been years ago.

jmr40 · November 30, 2013, 05:40 PM

Don't get too discouraged. I've seen new shooters do a lot worse. With time and practice you'll do better.

Your gun is a good choice for birds flying close. You may be taking shots that are too far away for your equipment and skills. I'm not a great shot myself and am not ashamed to admit it. Lots of guys shoot heavier loads and tighter chokes at birds pretty high. I tend to shoot an IC choke too. I know my limits and just don't waste ammo on the long shots. But once in range I get a pretty high percentage of hits with the big pattern and lots of shot in the air.

baddarryl · November 30, 2013, 05:50 PM

Ah heck man I missed some that were right on top of me! Yes I have shortened the length of attempted shots. My first time out I shot a box of shells with my Rem 1100 12ga RemChoke and this gun and fared one bird each per box! So I am not sure which would be better. Fact is I can't get the 1100 to run right so I am using the pump.

Wyosmith · November 30, 2013, 06:20 PM

There is a 2 step process that was taught to me by an old Live Bird champ named "Lucky' Zog. This man could go 1000 straigh on a regular basis.

First step
He told me to go shoot the shotgun like a rifle at 30 yards, at a very large paper with a 2" target on it. You want the pattern to center around the target. See if the stock fit is causing you to shoot high or low. Correct your hold or your stock fit, or both, if you shoot high or low.

Second step
set up a trap and throw a fast target at an 80 to 90 degree angle. Left or right doesn't matter.
Start by leading the clay bird 1 foot. You will miss behind. Now shoot 2 feet ahead. Then shoot 3 feet -- and so on.
Find out what the lead is. Let’s just say for this illustration it was 6 feet.

Now...understand that is the lead.

If a target was going away from you at 0 degrees you would still think of the same lead. You would be shooting right up the tail pipe, but still "aiming" at a point 6 feet in front of the target, even though target would block that point from your vision.

If it were going away at 45 degrees it would look like 3 feet, but you are actually "aiming" at a point 6 feet in front of that clay bird.

The more it is going straight away or straight toward you the less the gap will be between your bead and the bird. But the point of aim is still the same.
It's really just a geometrical problem and the point of aim is the same for that speed of target at that distance regardless of angle.
As you get to a point you can hit the clays every time at 30 yards, go to 40 yards. Then do it all again. Next go to 20 yards. Do it all again. then 10 yards and lastly 50 yards. (funny order, but that how he taught me)

As you get proficient at this kind of drill start throwing birds up at greater angles and vary the drill. Within about 300 rounds and about 500 clays you will become a pretty fair wing-shot.

bshefa · December 1, 2013, 02:27 PM

Make sure you have your head down and a good cheek weld. It is really easy to be looking for doves and have to take a very quick shot without getting your face down to the stock. It took me a while and quite a few shells to figure it out. Clays help but nothing can really mimic the irratic way a dove flies. Calm down, pay attention to your shots and don't give up it will take some time.

It also helps to be still. Sometimes you can get a MUCH easier shot if you just don't move. Especially if they are headed toward you. A MOJO dove is a hell of a product for getting them closer.

I started out with a 1-2 bird per box average 10 years later I am mad if I don't limit out with a box. It will come

BigD_in_FL · December 3, 2013, 06:27 PM

Quote:

put the sight right on them and nothing.

That's your problem right there - you never look at the sights, you look at the bird. Shotguns are POINTED, not AIMED - this isn't rifle shooting. Shooting where they are, means you are shooting where they WERE, not where they were going.

Go to a trap/skeet club and hit the skeet field. Using a gun that fits will increase success many fold

Dc777 · December 3, 2013, 07:03 PM

Cut the barrel in half and be done with it. I'm kidding ofcourse. I wonder if shooting some clay with Winchester tracker shells would help show you what your problem is? How high are the birds your shooting ( or trying to any how

). Shotguns have range limits.

Art Eatman · December 3, 2013, 08:43 PM

Pattern the gun with various brands of ammo, of course. But proper fit is The Deal.

Mount the gun to your shoulder with your eyes closed. (Good cheek weld and all that.) When you open your eyes, you should be looking right down the plane of the barrel, with the front bead just barely fully visible.

If you can't see the bead at all, it's muzzle down. See the top of the barrel? Muzzle high. You quickly mount the gun and shoot and you'll shoot low or high, respectively.

Basically, the buttstock of a shotgun IS the rear sight.

After that, it's all about lead and follow through.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · December 3, 2013, 09:50 PM

Imp Cyl. Might not be the ticket puncher for your sons 20 ga. Maybe a tightening of its shot string to Full choke may work a little better. Especially on pass shooting.

HiBC · December 4, 2013, 05:42 AM

A few things you might try:Humor me,see what happens.

With your hand placed in normal position on the forend,it is real easy to slip into rifle shooting mode.This will look/feel a bit funny,but reach your non-trigger hand way forward,so your arm is near straight.

Notice if you do that,it forces you to put your whole upper body,shoulders and spine,into the swing.Use that long enough to build your swing.
I have a problem from 30 yrs running machines,touching off cutters,etc.I have a right dominant eye,I'm right handed..but my eyes have become a bit ambidextrous.With a shotgun in front of my right eye,my left eye takes over.I miss big when that happens.Solution:Index finger under the bbl ,pointing at the bird.Let the left thumb point up at the sky.(right handed shooter)

It gets just a bit in the way of the left eye,and dominance transfers back to the right eye.

I do not look at the gun,I look at the bird...actually,I look at where the bird and the shot will collide.A point in space in front of the bird.

If you have a bruise on your upper arm,the butt is in the wrong place.

Jo6pak · December 4, 2013, 07:06 PM

Why can't I hit a dove!

Dove is small and fast
Human is big and slow

November 30, 2013, 01:16 PM	#1
baddarryl Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: Cape Fear! Posts: 1,683	Why can't I hit a dove! AAAAAAAAAAGH! 2nd time out. Using my son's Winchester 120 20ga with Imp Cyl. Using Rem STS #8 shot. I try to lead them, swing, put the sight right on them and nothing. First time out I got 2, second time 0! Guys in my party averaged about 5 this time and far more the first. Only thing I can think of is that I didn't concentrate on a good cheek weld for proper sight alignment. I didn't think of this until after they quit flying of course. I was probably shooting low of them because of this. AAAAAAAAAGH!

November 30, 2013, 01:29 PM	#2
.284 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2009 Location: davison, michigan Posts: 665	Does someone need a cold beer and a chance to calm down? I feel your pain......those little birds do have avoidance tactics like no other. Well, except Teal.....they anger me too. __________________ Guns have only two enemies, rust and politicians! Deer are amazing creatures....so please don't burn the sauteed onions and I'll pass on the steak sauce, thank you.

November 30, 2013, 03:28 PM	#3
globemaster3 Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2006 Posts: 1,482	Teal with a tailwind... Probably the most challenging to hit in my book! Do you have a skeet range nearby? Go run a few rounds and see how much better your bit percentage gets. Also, if this gun is new to you, go pattern it! It would be nice to know if the combination of you and gun is not hitting where you think it is! Best of luck! I've been in slumps like that where I had to work it out at the range. __________________ NRA Life Member "We have enough gun control. What we need is idiot control."

November 30, 2013, 04:45 PM	#5
Major Dave (retired) Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2008 Location: Between Dallas and Shreveport, LA Posts: 569	"put the sight right on them" is your problem. you will always shoot behind them, using that technique. Some people establish a constant lead, of about a yard, and continue the swing (follow through) after they pull the trigger. The amount of lead needed varies with the angle and speed of the bird's flight. Another technique is to swing thru the target, pulling the trigger when your muzzle passes the bird, and continuing the swing. I prefer the "swing thru" technique, as I could never guess how much "constant lead" various flight angles required. I usually hit about one bird per 3 shots. I believe the national average is one bird per 7 shots. Once I got a 15 bird limit with a box of 25 shells. I was Happy, happy, happy! All techniques require a good cheek weld on the stock, i.e., keep your head down. __________________ Artillery lends dignity to what would otherwise be but a vulgar brawl.

December 3, 2013, 07:03 PM	#14
Dc777 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2013 Location: South West, Alabama Posts: 609	Cut the barrel in half and be done with it. I'm kidding ofcourse. I wonder if shooting some clay with Winchester tracker shells would help show you what your problem is? How high are the birds your shooting ( or trying to any how ). Shotguns have range limits. __________________ NRA member Paintings were made to look at, and guns were made to be shot. If you aren't going to use them as they are intended for, get rid of them and buy a Picasso.

November 30, 2013, 04:34 PM	#4
baddarryl Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: Cape Fear! Posts: 1,683	Yes the gun is new to me and I have not patterned it. Good point. It is hard for me to find spare time to hit the range, but may have to soon if this keeps up!

November 30, 2013, 05:05 PM	#6
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	What Major Dave said. Swing through and past ahead the bird.

November 30, 2013, 05:07 PM	#7
CarJunkieLS1 Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2013 Posts: 686	Isn't it obvious your sons shotgun barrel is bent...

November 30, 2013, 05:15 PM	#8
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	If you want to know how bad you really shoot go dove hunting. They are hard to hit so you're in good company but you got good advice on the swing and follow through. I don't think I'd try it with a 20 gauge. I always used a 12 gauge when I went but that's been years ago.

November 30, 2013, 05:40 PM	#9
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	Don't get too discouraged. I've seen new shooters do a lot worse. With time and practice you'll do better. Your gun is a good choice for birds flying close. You may be taking shots that are too far away for your equipment and skills. I'm not a great shot myself and am not ashamed to admit it. Lots of guys shoot heavier loads and tighter chokes at birds pretty high. I tend to shoot an IC choke too. I know my limits and just don't waste ammo on the long shots. But once in range I get a pretty high percentage of hits with the big pattern and lots of shot in the air.

November 30, 2013, 05:50 PM	#10
baddarryl Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: Cape Fear! Posts: 1,683	Ah heck man I missed some that were right on top of me! Yes I have shortened the length of attempted shots. My first time out I shot a box of shells with my Rem 1100 12ga RemChoke and this gun and fared one bird each per box! So I am not sure which would be better. Fact is I can't get the 1100 to run right so I am using the pump.

November 30, 2013, 06:20 PM	#11
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	There is a 2 step process that was taught to me by an old Live Bird champ named "Lucky' Zog. This man could go 1000 straigh on a regular basis. First step He told me to go shoot the shotgun like a rifle at 30 yards, at a very large paper with a 2" target on it. You want the pattern to center around the target. See if the stock fit is causing you to shoot high or low. Correct your hold or your stock fit, or both, if you shoot high or low. Second step set up a trap and throw a fast target at an 80 to 90 degree angle. Left or right doesn't matter. Start by leading the clay bird 1 foot. You will miss behind. Now shoot 2 feet ahead. Then shoot 3 feet -- and so on. Find out what the lead is. Let’s just say for this illustration it was 6 feet. Now...understand that is the lead. If a target was going away from you at 0 degrees you would still think of the same lead. You would be shooting right up the tail pipe, but still "aiming" at a point 6 feet in front of the target, even though target would block that point from your vision. If it were going away at 45 degrees it would look like 3 feet, but you are actually "aiming" at a point 6 feet in front of that clay bird. The more it is going straight away or straight toward you the less the gap will be between your bead and the bird. But the point of aim is still the same. It's really just a geometrical problem and the point of aim is the same for that speed of target at that distance regardless of angle. As you get to a point you can hit the clays every time at 30 yards, go to 40 yards. Then do it all again. Next go to 20 yards. Do it all again. then 10 yards and lastly 50 yards. (funny order, but that how he taught me) As you get proficient at this kind of drill start throwing birds up at greater angles and vary the drill. Within about 300 rounds and about 500 clays you will become a pretty fair wing-shot.

December 1, 2013, 02:27 PM	#12
bshefa Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Location: Central Texas Posts: 185	Make sure you have your head down and a good cheek weld. It is really easy to be looking for doves and have to take a very quick shot without getting your face down to the stock. It took me a while and quite a few shells to figure it out. Clays help but nothing can really mimic the irratic way a dove flies. Calm down, pay attention to your shots and don't give up it will take some time. It also helps to be still. Sometimes you can get a MUCH easier shot if you just don't move. Especially if they are headed toward you. A MOJO dove is a hell of a product for getting them closer. I started out with a 1-2 bird per box average 10 years later I am mad if I don't limit out with a box. It will come

December 3, 2013, 08:43 PM	#15
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Pattern the gun with various brands of ammo, of course. But proper fit is The Deal. Mount the gun to your shoulder with your eyes closed. (Good cheek weld and all that.) When you open your eyes, you should be looking right down the plane of the barrel, with the front bead just barely fully visible. If you can't see the bead at all, it's muzzle down. See the top of the barrel? Muzzle high. You quickly mount the gun and shoot and you'll shoot low or high, respectively. Basically, the buttstock of a shotgun IS the rear sight. After that, it's all about lead and follow through.

December 3, 2013, 09:50 PM	#16
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Imp Cyl. Might not be the ticket puncher for your sons 20 ga. Maybe a tightening of its shot string to Full choke may work a little better. Especially on pass shooting.

December 4, 2013, 05:42 AM	#17
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	A few things you might try:Humor me,see what happens. With your hand placed in normal position on the forend,it is real easy to slip into rifle shooting mode.This will look/feel a bit funny,but reach your non-trigger hand way forward,so your arm is near straight. Notice if you do that,it forces you to put your whole upper body,shoulders and spine,into the swing.Use that long enough to build your swing. I have a problem from 30 yrs running machines,touching off cutters,etc.I have a right dominant eye,I'm right handed..but my eyes have become a bit ambidextrous.With a shotgun in front of my right eye,my left eye takes over.I miss big when that happens.Solution:Index finger under the bbl ,pointing at the bird.Let the left thumb point up at the sky.(right handed shooter) It gets just a bit in the way of the left eye,and dominance transfers back to the right eye. I do not look at the gun,I look at the bird...actually,I look at where the bird and the shot will collide.A point in space in front of the bird. If you have a bruise on your upper arm,the butt is in the wrong place.

December 4, 2013, 07:06 PM	#18
Jo6pak Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: West Coast...of WI Posts: 1,663	Why can't I hit a dove! Dove is small and fast Human is big and slow __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.