Chicken bone thrower shot

[4V50 Gary]

Seattle Man went to Safeway to take advantage of Cheap Chicken Monday. He's happily munching away but tosses the chicken bone out the window and strikes a woman. They began arguing. The woman grabs scissors and goes stabby on his tires. He wrestles her to the ground at which point the Safeway Guard intervenes and tells him to let her go. They get up but he keeps her restrained and tells her he is performing a citizen's arrest. 911 is called. She produces a firearm and while initially pointing it at his head, lowers the gun and shoots him in the leg.

Shot, he goes down and takes her down with him. They grab for the gun and he gets possession of it. At this point the woman's friend joins in and attacks him and the two women get away.

Clearly a bad shoot IMO. She wasn't in a life/death situation. It was also not a use of lawful force to resist a (citizen) arrest.

https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/se...t-chicken-bone

BTW, the fellow reminds me of a Morrocan coworker who would leave his chicken bones at his workstation instead of throwing them in the trash.

[Recycled bullet]

I wonder why the newspaper blurred out her face in the video.

[Shoots Left]

When I heard the part about him throwing the bones out of the car window that immediately reminded me of an old John Anderson song; Chicken Truck.

Unlike this encounter no one got shot in the song.

[armoredman]

I read that and thought it was the plot for a bad 1970s movie - that actually happened. It's amazing how stupid people really are today.

[4V50 Gary]

I could have had the title, "Don't toss chicken bones out the window. You might just get shot" or easier, "Litterbug gets shot."

Anybody else old enough to remember the "Don't be a litterbug" ads?

BTW, I keep a small plastic box for my car garbage. I don't toss litter in the streets. I blame that on good parenting.

[tangolima]

Armed society ia supposed to be polite. But sometimes it still loses to lack of decency. Decency is surely in short supply nowadays unfortunately. Getting shot over chicken bone. How stupid!

-TL

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[4V50 Gary]

Since COVID I noticed people are shorter temper.

IMO,while the chicken bone initiated the incident, the victim wasn't shot over the chicken bone. He was shot for restraining her under citizen's arrest. Here is pure speculation: Bet part of the fear that induced her to shoot was she was probably an unlicensed CCW. She could even be a felon with a firearm and feared incarceration. Who knows?

[fastbolt]

They're out there, everywhere, and occasionally they're going to run across each other. Hope you're not in the vicinity when it happens.

[Luis Mario Garcia]

A woman being held in some kind
of chokehold by a guy who is a
stranger to her is definitely in a
life-threatening situation.


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[stagpanther]

Scissors and gun are deadly weapons. The dude is also a vet. He probably should not have escalated from the common sense point of view--but he would be justified in using any means necessary to defend himself IMO.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Luis Mario Garcia

A woman being held in some kind
of chokehold by a guy who is a
stranger to her is definitely in a
life-threatening situation.

Yet, the primary question is "How did we get here?" not "Is this life threatening?".

Otherwise, you could just shoot at someone and then when they retaliate you could say you were in a life-threatening situation and so you were justified when you finally killed the other person.

You do not get to attack someone's vehicle, and potentially attack that person, with scissors and then claim to be defending yourself.

The whole situation is stupid, he shouldn't be throwing chickens bones. She shouldn't be violent over getting hit by a chicken bone. He shouldn't have responded to her rants (with anything more than an apology). He should have left when she got irate. She shouldn't have attacked his car, regardless of anything else.

You've got a dozen ways to to be "Dr Reason" and stop the holes in swiss cheese model.... but no.
Everyone chose to be stupid.

However, at that moment, the question is not "is it life threatening", it is "is his use of force justified" in that restraint. If his is not, then defending herself is justified.

However, once that chokehold is over... justification for use of force is also over. You can't just stand up and then shoot him in the leg... unless your life remains in danger AND you are not the aggressor.

[tangolima]

5 essentials of justified self defense with deadly force. All five need to be met simultaneously.

Innocence. You may not be the instigator of the incident. The woman didn't start the fight.

Imminence. The thread must be immediate. It seemed to be. Yes and no. Sounds like the hole was off so that she could draw and fire.

Duty to retreat. I don't know whether it was in a stand-your-ground state.

Proportionality. Was the choke hold deadly to justify response with deadly force. Probably.

Reasonableness. Would a normal reasonable person do the same? That's questionable.

An armed society is supposed to be polite. But what I see and hear makes me worry. Some people on 2A side are simply ready to do combat at a drop of hat. I choose not to live like that, so I keep distance.

-TL

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[echo154]

Was he actually littering…..or was he from PETA and feeding homeless and wild hungry animals…..rats are animals too

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by tangolima

Innocence. You may not be the instigator of the incident. The woman didn't start the fight.

We don't actually know that, and in fact it seems more likely that the woman was the aggressor.
Your car getting hit by a chicken bone does not constitute violence justifying knife/scissor work.

She pulled a weapon (scissors) and attacked his vehicle.
He has the right to defend his property.
She does not have the right to shoot him, as she is the aggressor.

If those facts from the article are accurate, *she* is the attacker.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger

We don't actually know that, and in fact it seems more likely that the woman was the aggressor.

Your car getting hit by a chicken bone does not constitute violence justifying knife/scissor work.



She pulled a weapon (scissors) and attacked his vehicle.

He has the right to defend his property.

She does not have the right to shoot him, as she is the aggressor.



If those facts from the article are accurate, *she* is the attacker.

The whole thing wasn't started by her. But that's only 1 of the 5 essentials. Satisfying 1 doesn't justify using deadly force. One has to meet all 5 at the same time. I doubt she did.

-TL

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[echo154]

The PETA comment was the defense his attorney will come up with if he gets sued or charged….I actually do put food scraps out away from my house, just the non harmful stuff! One year I picked up a roadkill deer, staked it out in the field behind my house and watched Bald Eagles feed on it!

[Shoots Left]

First off, no way PETA endorses this guy's actions. Cooked chicken bones splinter when crushed and can impale themselves in the mouth or throat of the animal eating it thus causing serious problems.

Secondly there's a lot to unpack regarding this incident. I'm not gonna speculate who's the victim or who's the assailant but I think that our bone chunker is damn lucky that she shot him in the leg rather than opt to ventilate his head.

The second rule of a gun fight: Don't bring chicken bones to a gun fight!

[echo154]

Apparently my sarcasm didn’t come through sorry, I was a cop for 30 yrs! You’d be surprised at some of the outrageous defenses I’ve seen! As for the Gun, why pull a Gun in a chicken fight! Two wrongs do not a right make! It proves some people don’t possess enough common sense to own firearms.

Of course I’m believe “too stupid to live” should be a valid jury verdict!

[4V50 Gary]

Chicken bone thrower initiated the incident by inadvertantly hitting the woman with a corpus pullus.

Woman escalated it by committing acts of vandalism or attempted vandalism.

Man has a right to use reasonable force to protect his property and effect a citizen's arrest (by the same token, she could initiate a citizen's arrest on him for littering).

Man bearhugs woman (and it's not a choke hold) to restrain her.

Woman produces a firearm in defiance of a citizen's arrest.

Woman unjustifiably uses deadly force to resist the citizen's arrest.

echo154 is right about outrageous defenses fabricated by the defense attorney to create "reasonable doubt" on behalf of the defendant. Happens all the time and stupid juries buy them. BrianP is correct is asserting she pulled a weapon to attack his car and it was unjustified and that he has a right to defend his property. Her "self-defense" is not justifiable.

She should have summoned the police, citizen's arrested the corpus pollus chucker for littering (can't say battery unless it can be proven that he deliberately threw corpus pollus at her) and let the court (both criminal and civil) resolve the matter.

That said, I would love to see the abolishing of statutory law and replacement with common law.

[Recycled bullet]

The woman should have ignored the chicken bone and gone on with her life peacefully.

Instead she decided that she was looking for trouble and when you're looking for something you'll usually find it.

Stabbing a man's car because you stepped on a chicken bone is ridiculous.

I don't know why the man decided to engage with that crazy lady.

Pepper spray may have been an appropriate seasoning for the occasion.

[echo154]

Nobody has mentioned that it would appear, like nearly 15 other, states does not allow a “citizens arrest”. I live in Illinois, no worries I’m moving, a state that does not allow it. Nor does it recognize bail bond(bounty hunters)!
One needs to be careful in this area, some states allow it only for minor offenses. We had bond agents come into the state and “kidnap” felons with high bail warrants who skipped out, I did have to arrest said bond agents as they violated state laws
Neither party was within their rights to do what they did! Nor was any common sense involved! In today’s society where our “elected officials” behave like children, or just plain lunatics, I guess it’s considered “ok”

Echo154

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by Luis Mario Garcia

A woman being held in some kind
of chokehold by a guy who is a
stranger to her is definitely in a
life-threatening situation.

I missed the part in the article that said he had her in a choke hold? She was in no way in danger of her life, based on the article. He had every right to restrain her from slashing his tires and calling 911, IMO his use of force was reasonable to the crime of tire slashing. She started the fight, and escalated the fight to deadly force.

[JohnKSa]

You can't start a fight, shoot someone if it looks like you are losing and then claim it was self-defense. That would essentially legalize murder, if you think about it.

[4V50 Gary]

That reminds me of the AuntyFa "setup" in Portland or Seattle where one AuntyFa did something that caused the victim to react and then a third party AuntyFA shot the victim in defense of the first AuntyFa. The shooter was held not guilty by right of defense of another. It should have been conspiracy (to commit murder) and murder but when you have a Soros supported DA, expect unjustice.

[Koda94]

Not much info in the article to truly judge, but it seem odd the article protected the identity of the suspect. I also found it interesting the security guard didnt try to physically intervene in the victims behalf.