November 1, 2015, 09:54 PM | #26 | |
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November 2, 2015, 03:18 PM | #27 |
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If someone is buying a 80% lower off the internet, I think the government is not going to think you're using it as a paperweight.
The idea is pretty pointless for anonymity. |
November 2, 2015, 05:27 PM | #28 |
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for those that have mentioned its cheaper to buy a serialized lower for $45 or so
at least where I live, you still have to pay $25 per lower for the paperwork fees, and at a store, or around $65 private ffl guy and wait 10DAYS to pick up a stripped lower or you can invest around $150 for a jig $45-50 local pickup 80% lower and in a few hours with a drill press complete the lower of course you will need to make maybe 7 lowers to pay for the jig over time but there is no wait, no fees when building your own so for some people its way more convenient we dont have the luxury of buying 5 dirt cheap registered lowers and just let them sit around at some ffl shop you have I think 30 days to start the paperwork, pay the fees and wait 10 days to pick up where I can have a dozen 80% laying around waiting to be milled out at my leisure and im sure the more you do, the better you get at it I could care less about serial number its the 10 day wait that really -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- me off they call it a cool off wait like I could do anything with a stripped lower Last edited by chunky_lover; November 2, 2015 at 05:33 PM. |
November 2, 2015, 07:04 PM | #29 |
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"If someone is buying a 80% lower off the internet, I think the government is not going to think you're using it as a paperweight.
The idea is pretty pointless for anonymity." Please tell us how the government would know you bought it in the first place. 80% receivers are not guns. There is no regulation on them. What if you actually wanted it for a paper weight? |
November 2, 2015, 09:05 PM | #30 | |
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but, I didn't do this for the "ghost" gun aspect, although it's kind of a cool conversation piece and I fully believe that the more people that take the 2nd amendment into their own hands and skirt the requirements of the feds to exercise their rights, will make the gun community stronger and more laws harder to pass. how great would it be if every home had a couple firearms that never had a serial number logged into a system somewhere, that'd really make the passage of registries and other "common-sense" laws very difficult to impose. I made 80% lowers because it was fun, and it taught me a new skill that is another side of my favorite hobby. when you gain the knowledge to build a firearm with your own sweat/blood/curses and tools, it's one more step towards mastery of a given trade. this didn't make me an expert, but I gained a much deeper understanding of the platform. I hope to build a 1911 one day as well, even though it's likely not going to be a big money saving endeavor. it's unfortunate that the cost savings isn't there, it makes sense that it would be. less burdensome controls on the manufacturer like licensing, paperwork, lawyers, inspections and so many other expensive and consuming aspects of becoming a true "firearms manufacturer". I guess the volume of sales just isn't there to yield a profit selling the 80's at under 50$. the saving could be a big factor when looking at AR308 lowers though. generally the 80% companies are selling 308 kits for just a few extra dollars over the ar15 kits. when I finally do dip my toes into the ar10 waters, I very well may start with an 80%'er. if only I could find a cheaper alternative to all this tin-foil, I'd be well on my way already.
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November 3, 2015, 08:50 PM | #31 |
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Gunplummer;
"Do you buy 80% beer kits and just finish the last little bit?" Uh, yes, that's basically what an extract kit is. It's also very commonly used by homebrewers because you don't need a 10-gallon mash pot and propane burner, or extremely expensive kegging apparatus. Pretty much the exact same motivation behind builders wishing to complete an 80% with its much more modest tooling & facility requirements than a billet or forging project. People can still get their hands dirty running drill presses or routers, still make a project who's success still rests on their skill and attention to detail. Believe it or not, this can be a pretty steep and fulfilling project for a generation that has never had to learn to use calipers or tools. Most high schools haven't had a shop class for decades. I know 80% skeptics have this vision of all builders tossing their lowers into a CNC as an affront to the man, but the truth is they either A) never get built, B) get ruined a time or two before success, or C) are completed with a lot of handwork and measurement which is still required when jigs are employed. CNC mills simply aren't that common, and even then, getting the thing set up, trammed, indicated, and running properly through the toolpath (expect to scrap at least twice as many lowers doing CNC the first time as manual) is just about as big a project as a crummy router build. Budget rat-rodders vs Porsche tuners. Frankenmauser; "I have picked up finished lowers for as little as $34 apiece." Not directed at you but rather the skeptics, but it's like people have no memory at all, isn't it? 80%'s took off when there were no lowers at all, and factories found they could sort of satisfy market demand by punching out product that skipped some of the most critical and red-tape-laden steps. Years back, 0% forgings went for a handful of dollars, yet today they have appreciated greatly; all the more if the owner was able to process them further along, or even build them out into complete guns for himself (saving him from needing to buy complete firearms going forward). The reason 80%'s have lost their cost edge, is simply because the shortage is over; another panic (like next year ) and companies will once again omit the whole ATF/Firearm side of the process to increase production and hold prices down. "I just wanted something to 'play' with; and wanted to see if a ratty, cheap, bench-top Chinese drill press and a nearly-dead (probably counterfeit) "Dremel" could get the job done with no jig." Precisely. It's a very instructive exercise all around. Sort of like those black-pipe shotguns that seem to be all the rage, only less stupid/dangerous. "Pride. Satisfaction. Knowledge of the equipment. ...And no one to blame, but yourself, if something goes wrong." This guy gets it. BTW, how often do we hear of factory AR's being 'off spec' or whatever, and blamed for bad performance..? "There is absolutely NOTHING illegal about building your own gun. Where do you guys get this stuff?" Up North, it seems. Gunplummer; "If you want to "make" your own lower, buy a block of 7075 and have at it. Don't try to make completing an 80% AR lower more than it is. I don't doubt a lot of people on this forum could start with a block of wood and make one. I just saw the post above. No, it is not illegal. But it is a long way from "Building" anything. Makes one wonder why people don't start with a black powder revolver kit. A little much , I guess." Well, it's darn sure not merely 'assembling' a lower/gun, so what would you call it? I see you're from PA, home to America's industrial machining might at one point (often still is), so I can see why you'd look down on amateurs if you are a professional machinist, or something, but your comment is snobbish. Milling the FCG pocket requires indicating, measuring, cutting straight, drilling straight, and inspecting the final product for the project to complete successfully; how is that not machinework/building? Would you consider starting from a 0% forging a 'build,' seeing as you need a jig/fixture to hold the funky-shaped thing? Ironically, there's a "Gunplumber" out there who's a veritable champion of the amateur gun building hobby you look down upon. "If someone is buying a 80% lower off the internet, I think the government is not going to think you're using it as a paperweight." Ironically, that's exactly what most become. Either the buyer never gets around to it, or botches the job because they are learning. The other flip side to this whole issue are the "80%'s" out there for other firearms. Notably, 1911's which enable one to build a competitor to Wilson for pennies on the dollar should you exhibit the skill required, and STEN type tube guns, whose "80%" is literally a section of conduit cut to length. As vibrant and well-served as the AR market is anymore, there no real need for the homebrew niche, like there was as recently as last year (and next year), but guess what? Some people who were reduced to such desperate measures found they actually liked the hobby TCB
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November 4, 2015, 05:11 AM | #32 |
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Maybe you should lay off the home brew, I am not the one that posted that. The main market target of 80% AR lowers was and always will be people that want something "Unregistered". What are you going to do when it is done, paint it? Why don't you start with an 80% wooden stock (Any gun will do), fit it and checker it, and then finish it off. It takes a lot more skill and then you will have something to be proud of when you are done.
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November 4, 2015, 05:32 PM | #33 |
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I don't think any government agency is tracking who is buying 80% lower receivers. First, it's not illegal to buy them, second, it's not illegal to finish them, Third, the government is prohibited from keeping lists of who owns what firearms. Fourth, the IRS has lost a huge number of employees - assuming this is true, do you really think the government is cutting back IRS staff to fund a bunch of grunts to keep track of 80% lower receivers???
Think about this: The government doesn't even track the production of 5 Watt (not mw) handheld lasers! On the chart of which they should be more concerned about, 5 watt handheld lasers is probably a 5 out of 10, while 80% receivers are maybe a .05. They might as well track people purchasing barrel blanks. So, buy your 80% receivers and silencer kits (oh, I mean solvent traps) - just don't do anything illegal with them and nobody cares. Guns are old school. I wouldn't be surprised to read about a 500 Watt handheld laser in the next 7 years. Last edited by Skans; November 4, 2015 at 05:41 PM. |
November 4, 2015, 08:17 PM | #34 | ||
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https://www.atf.gov/file/83656/download Then the ATF will go in and get the manufacturer's sales records like they did for the ARES 80% lowers. So buy your 80% lowers with cash from a local source so there's no record. http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/17/f...e-court-order/ Quote:
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November 5, 2015, 07:23 PM | #35 | |
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November 6, 2015, 04:53 PM | #36 |
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So, for some unknown reason, 80% lowers are machined much better than the finished receivers?
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November 6, 2015, 11:08 PM | #37 | |
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All he said is that he is aware of at least one run of cheap lower receivers that were out of spec.
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November 7, 2015, 01:38 AM | #38 | |
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Is it the fact the AR FCG isn't 'artistic' enough why you don't feel it worthy of anyone's time, or the fact it results in an 'unregistered' 'firearm?' How much work do you feel someone should have to put in before they should be recognized as a hobbyist gunbuilder, rather than some shady dodger? You're talking hundreds of hours for a billet or Jack Squat (sheet metal weld-up) build unless the maker is experienced or 'cheating' with CNC tools*. Nobody less antigun than the ATF itself drew the line where it is, because they could not convincingly claim the item did not require substantial work to be completed. Does an AK flat build qualify, or an HK 'semi-flat,' since they're actually easier than an AR if you only have a drill press to 'mill' with? TCB *CNC is hardly a cake walk, even when things 'work,' stuff happens often enough to botch or complicate a job for a small time machinist
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November 7, 2015, 08:31 AM | #39 |
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FrankenMauser, he said exactly that. All I hear is CNC this, CNC that. I doubt the original receivers were even cut on NC tape machines. I don't know how I get roped into these usless discussions. You are all correct. Put your little "Rifle builds" together like the 6 year olds did with tinker toys years ago.
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November 7, 2015, 08:54 PM | #40 |
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"All I hear is CNC this, CNC that"
Mill; $1000 CNC conversion; $1000 Setup/debugging; 40+ hours Lower blank; 30$ That's about as cheap as you can get it. Yeah, just like tinker toys. BTW, for those lucky few who have both means and skill to utilize CNC, milling from billet is about as difficult as an 80% --actually easier since no jigs may be required ("billet" was largely invented as a way around expensive forgings during the shortage). The only thing easier is the cleanup and reduced number of setups. Despite the frantic media, hardly anyone has access to CNC; it is much more expensive and finnicky to learn than manual machining. You clearly look down on the activity; whatever, that's just like, your opinion, man. I'm more curious what you would rather have people do? Doing 'real' smithy work requires lathe more than mill, and a largish one at that, and there's no way in heck anyone's diving into that barrel of monkeys unless it will be earning them dinner. Too much money. I know I wouldn't have, had I not had the good fortune to meet a friend with a modest shop to learn some basics in. Hobbyists can't/don't jump in full time; a fact that some professionals can't quite wrap their heads around sometimes. TCB
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November 7, 2015, 09:40 PM | #41 |
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You don't need a CNC to mill these. You find the center line, and work from it, cutting everything to dimension and depth. Any mill, including the cheap mill/drills, will do it, though if you have access to a knee mill, you're better off, as you can hog out more metal with them in one pass.
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November 8, 2015, 01:27 PM | #42 | |
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http://themanufactory.us/floor-plan/ If you have one of those in your area, and I'd guess the majority of the US population has one within an hour, an 80% and much more can be completed pretty easily. |
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November 8, 2015, 04:28 PM | #43 |
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...but will they allow you to complete firearms? (ATF 2015-1 was quite clear about a business allowing its facilities to be used for the purpose, without a license and bound book being involved)
TCB
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November 8, 2015, 11:43 PM | #44 | |
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For people in certain parts of the midwest, or along a coast, there are generally more options. But much of the country still doesn't have reasonable access to any kind of 'maker workshop'. In some parts of the country, a "Major Metropolitan Area" might be a city of 15,000 people, that's still 2-3 hours away. Even when I lived in a metropolitan area with a population of 1.3 million people, the closest workshop/hackerspace was 6 hours away (Las Vegas, NV -- and it's still the closest to SLC). ...And there was a 14 month wait for machine time on even the manual mills and lathes. Where I am now, the closest facility is still Las Vegas. Except, now, it's a 9 hour drive. ...Or 9.5 hours to Denver, CO. ...Or 10 hours to Portland, OR. And most of them didn't allow work on, or manufacture of firearms or firearm parts, before 2015-1. Now that 2015-1 is out there, I don't know of a single workshop/hackerspace that'll even let you in the door if there's any suspicion of firearms or parts being made or modified.
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November 10, 2015, 06:06 AM | #45 |
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I made an Ares Armor jigless poly 80%. http://www.slickguns.com/product/are...00-shipping-50
I Still have 2 of them not machined. Mine has the different color plastic so one can see where to dremel out. Got them when complete AR lowers were still over $100. The 80% were only $50. I had gave some out for Xmas gifts too. Now with Anderson's going for $40. No not worth it. I do however find it fun to build something and enjoy the process. I had just posted mine here.. LINK http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=568829 Last edited by peggysue; November 10, 2015 at 06:16 AM. |
November 11, 2015, 03:50 PM | #46 |
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I own a machine shop and several people have brought these things in. I always get a laugh out of it. I even had one guy ask me if he could "just use one of my mills for an hour". To be honest I dont know how any of the manufacturers make lowers as cheep as they do. 80% or finished. I bought an Anderson when they were $59 and felt it was a great bargain.
Mill time is $100 an hour Anodizing is a $75 min charge from my vendor. 7075 aluminum billet $15 Thats all before you go through the FFL issues, insurance etc.... I go to my local LGS and he will sell me as many lowers as I want. the serial number and NICS check is fine with me.
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November 12, 2015, 11:26 PM | #47 |
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I use my $300 harbor freight drill press and a $50 x,y vise and make lowers super easy, each one I do gets better then the last one
usually takes couple hourse all have worked with no issues, and never made a mistake yet that rendered it useless you dont need a milling machine, just free time I even powdercoat my lowers too for the finish color once I make a few more the tools and jig will have paid for itself |
November 13, 2015, 12:45 AM | #48 |
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If you're looking to save money, cheapest is to buy a serialized gun. If you are looking to get into a fun project and want the satisfaction of partly building your own gun, then an 80% lower might be an option. If you are looking to own a gun that the government does not know you have, then buy used from a private seller in your state (my state has great websites that help private buyers and sellers connect) or go to a gun show.
Most people who buy 80% lowers and build their own thinking that they just pulled one over on the government have been fooled. There are about ten legal ways to acquire a firearm cheaper and easier that the government can never track. |
November 15, 2015, 12:23 PM | #49 | |
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I missed 2015-1. I just read it and you are correct. Doesn't leave much leeway for such things. I'd like to see how that worked out in court though. Seems like quite a stretch to include a non-profit association or society as "in the business of manufacturing firearms." Last edited by johnwilliamson062; November 15, 2015 at 12:36 PM. |
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