How do you carry in states that don't have reciprocity

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by TomNJVA

I believe stopping for gas or lunch, or even for an overnight stop, are acceptable so long as it is clear you are passing through and do not intend on staying. Perhaps one of our legal experts can clarify.

Google Revell v. Port Authority of New York & New Jersey.

IMHO any voluntary stop for any reason is risky. The Revell case admittedly isn't directly applicable to ground travel in a personal vehicle, but its outcome isn't promising either, and AFAIK there has not yet been serious court precedent contesting the FOPA travel protection as applied to personal ground travel. It's one of those "Do I want to be the test case?" scenarios. I certainly don't want to be.

[Aguila Blanca]

For those who don't know or might not remember, Greg Revell is the gentleman who was on an air trip through Newark International Airport, with a flight change at Newark. Due to a delay, he missed his connection so he retrieved his luggage (which contained a properly declared and legally packed handgun), spent the night in a hotel on the airport grounds, and was arrested the next day when he arrived at the check-in counter and attempted to again declare his firearm.

IMHO the Revell case is a good lesson in why, if you are delayed in making a connecting flight, you should NOT reclaim your luggage but insist that the airlines retain custody of it until you (and your luggage) arrive at the intended destination. Beyond that, I don't see much about the case that sheds any light on travel by auto.

First, Revell was arrested by the New York New Jersey Port Authority police. You're not likely to find them doing radar speed traps on any highway, probably not even the New Jersey Turnpike. Second, the Revell case became an example of the saying "You may beat the rap but you can't beat the ride." Mr. Revell was NOT convicted of any crime. He did get to spend a delightful, all expenses paid weekend in a New Jersey jail, but after that the prosecution eventually declined to prosecute. So there wasn't even a trial. My own theory (and I don't know if the resident legal minds here agree) is that the prosecutor saw that he was probably going to lose if he brought the case to trial so, rather than have a loss on the record which might then serve as guidance in other cases, he chose not to try the case.

The key point I get from the Revell case is that the FOPA simply didn't contemplate travel by any means other than private automobile. The FOPA law wants your gun(s) to remain locked up and not convenient to you in the passenger compartment of your vehicle while transiting through intervening states between your starting point and your destination. Obviously, if you have a flight change that requires reclaiming your luggage at an airport in an intervening state, you simply can't comply with that requirement. And yet changing to connecting flights on other airlines, perhaps small, regional carriers, is a VERY common part of normal travel today.

With respect to overnight stops when traveling by car, the FOPA doesn't say you can't stop -- but it doesn't say you can. It is silent. There are two issues/questions: First, does an overnight stop (at an interchange motel, purely to eat and sleep) make that state a "destination," in which case the FOPA says your possession of a firearm must be legal in that jurisdiction? Or is it simply an overnight pause that's part of a single leg of a trip from one other state to a different other state? The law doesn't address that.

Second, if we assume (will all due cautions about assuming) that an overnight sleep stop does not create a new destination, what do you do with your gun(s) during the stop? The law doesn't appear to make any provision for taking it/them into your motel room for the night. To be strictly in accordance with the law, it would appear that you might have to leave the gun(s) locked in the vehicle for the night -- thus exposing them to potential theft.

The law says what the law says. We can all read it. I am not aware of any cases that have been tried under the FOPA, so there's not much out there in case law to look to for guidance.

[TomNJVA]

If one is passing through a large state, such as Texas or Montana or the length of California, a stop for food and gas is inevitable, as a night in a motel may be as well. It would seem that an arrest for such a stop is counter to the spirit and intent of the FOPA that one should be able to pass through a state with firearms properly stored. Of course that doesn't mean that local LEOs would or could make that judgment, and a legal entanglement could still ensue.

TomNJVA

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by TomNJVA

It would seem that an arrest for such a stop is counter to the spirit and intent of the FOPA that one should be able to pass through a state with firearms properly stored.

And an arrest would be counter to the intent of the FOPA. That's why the FOPA falls so short -- it's totally inadequate to properly and fully address the realities of modern travel. The language seems to have contemplated only one-day trips by privately-owned automobile. The result is that any jurisdiction that doesn't agree with the intent can usually find enough wiggle room to at least create problems, if not secure an actual conviction.

[Armorer-at-Law]

And an arrest would be counter to the intent of the FOPA. That's why the FOPA falls so short -- it's totally inadequate to properly and fully address the realities of modern travel. The language seems to have contemplated only one-day trips by privately-owned automobile.

The simplest explanation of the language is that it reflects what Congress could get passed. If they had put more detail into it, either excluding or expressly including stops during the travel, it may not have passed.

[kraigwy]

Ref: Ill.

I will never advise that anyone break the law, but in reality the possibility of being stopped and searched is extremely remote

I got a pretty good scare on this subject. My wife was visiting her parents in Indiana. She has a permit in Wyoming, Indiana recognizes Wyoming and visa versa, no problem right???

She wrecked her care just after she crossed into Indiana from ILL. The car had to be towed. The police investigating the accident asked if there was anything she wanted to get out of the car before it was towed. She told him she had her revolver in the vehicle and where it was located, showing her WY permit. The officer got the gun, unloaded it. And took her to the police station where she waited for her brother. When she left the officer gave her gun and ammo back, NO PROBLEM.

But what if she had wrecked on the Ill side of the line. I'd probably still be making my own dinner.

True, chances are they, nothing would happen. But things, accidents for example, do happen.

Ill is not a state I would take any chances in. I was contacted riding through northern ILL on a MC one time. I have a leather jacket from my department that I use on my MC. It still has the Anchorage PD patch on it. I was contacted by a group of OFF DUTY Chicago police officers on a MC tour and they started, rudely inquiring where I got the jacket and if I was carrying or not. They didn't seem very happy when I admitted I was. This was just after Chicago had to pay a large settlement for false arrest for arresting a retired cop for carrying per the LEOSA.

I highly recommend if you have to travel through that state, lock your gun in a locked box, separate from the ammo, and locked in your trunk.

You never know when you'll get into a traffic accident. You can be minding your own business, driving through, and some one could run into you. You're found with the gun and end up in jail, All for just passing through.

[rickyrick]

Even in a state in which you are totally legal, you will most likely get a free background check by the officer if it is discovered that you have a firearm.

I even got one back in Texas for having a rifle in the truck (legal) and I even had a CHL

[mrray13]

I've got to say this, Chicago, and surrounding area, does not represent all of Illinois law enforcement. Some of us, especially in the true southern part, south of I64, know and understand the law.

Truthfully, our dispatchers don't even advise officers if their inquiry has a CCL, in state or not. When I get one on my MDC, I might ask if the home state is must inform, otherwise, I just watch hands as best as I can as on every stop.

Chicago is a different beast, as is the surrounding areas. And home to some of the most arrogant cops I've ever had the displeasure of running across. Although...

Yesterday I stopped a retired CPD officer for speed, and amazingly, he didn't badge me. He advised he was carrying, and when I asked what, he could only answer a S&W 9mm. I told him that if he knew the model by the time I ran his dl, I'd give him a warning. Not only did I get model, 3rd gen 6946, but he gave me the serial number as well. We discussed the firearm a bit, had a few laughs and he went on his way. I wish all CPD officers had his attitude.

On topic, in Illinois, with a valid out-of-state ccl, you can indeed carry, loaded, in the vehicle, but not on person. I do believe they are working on some reciprocity, but am unsure.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by mrray13

Truthfully, our dispatchers don't even advise officers if their inquiry has a CCL, in state or not. When I get one on my MDC, I might ask if the home state is must inform, otherwise, I just watch hands as best as I can as on every stop.

What difference does it make if someone's home state is "shall inform"? If you are in Illinois, Illinois laws apply. Likewise, if someone whose home state is not "shall inform" travels to a state that is "shall inform," that traveler had better know the law of that state and conduct him/herself accordingly.

[Ocraknife]

Virginia will do the same thing beginning JULY 1, 2016.

I'm kind of surprised that VA didn't do it sooner.

When I got my permit there in 2001 (in Hanover County, near Richmond) they didn't even finger print me and the license itself was just an un-laminated piece of paper folded up and stuck in a small, business card sized envelope. I say that because it seems like it's less rigorous than other states that require finger printing.

[junglebob]

I realize this thread is almost a year old but the OP asked about transporting through Illinois most people replying seem to think that you must transport according to federal law. Actually Illinois transport laws are better than many states. You only need to have your firearm encased and unloaded and ammo or a loaded magazine can be in the case or container. A console is considered a case and it need not be locked only closed and the firearm completely enclosed. Our carry law made transport uniform throughout the state.

Also as someone stated you can have a loaded handgun in your vehicle if you have your states LTC, you just can't exit the vehicle with it loaded. If you unloaded it and put the handgun and loaded magazine in a fanny pack or other such case you'd still be legal. Of course you couldn't take it into a school or court house or such a place.

Illinois also has good self defense laws, no duty to retreat, and similar to "stand your ground".

[OldMarksman]

Illinois' carry law allows for ccw by permitted residents of other states driving through the state.

Just to clarify, that provision applies while the permittee is in the vehicle.

A loaded firearm must be left in the locked vehicle while the permittee is not in it.

An unloaded firearm may be carried in a shipping case or a firearm container.

[Gary L. Griffiths]

Same way I carry everywhere, including NY City, San Francisco, Chicago, etc. With my retired badge and LEOSA credentials in my pocket!

Hopefully, all licensed concealed carriers will soon have the same rights!

[steve4102]

From the NRA-ILA

Might be worth a read.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2015...transportation

FEDERAL LAW ON TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS

A provision of the federal law known as the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act, or FOPA, protects those who are transporting firearms for lawful purposes from local restrictions which would otherwise prohibit passage.

Under FOPA, notwithstanding any state or local law, a person is entitled to transport a firearm from any place where he or she may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he or she may lawfully possess and carry it, if the firearm is unloaded and locked out of reach. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm must be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Ammunition that is either locked out of reach in the trunk or in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console is also covered.

Travelers should be aware that some state and local governments treat this federal provision as an “affirmative defense” that may only be raised after an arrest. All travelers in areas with restrictive laws would be well advised to have copies of any applicable firearm licenses or permits, as well as copies or printouts from the relevant jurisdictions’ official publications or websites documenting pertinent provisions of law (including FOPA itself) or reciprocity information. In the event of an unexpected or extended delay, travelers should make every effort not to handle any luggage containing firearms unnecessarily and to secure it in a location where they do not have ready access to it.

[Texas45]

Originally Posted by steve4102

From the NRA-ILA



Might be worth a read.



https://www.nraila.org/articles/2015...transportation

Ask the lady who fought the court battle over just this "law" how easy it is.
Believe it was in NH or NJ she was passing through and was stopped and arrested court battle was a long one.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Irish Jack]

The Illinois Police are not friendly to anyone transporting across their state. The problem is being charged over a small misstep. You could lose your right to own a firearm any where.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Texas45

Ask the lady who fought the court battle over just this "law" how easy it is.
Believe it was in NH or NJ she was passing through and was stopped and arrested court battle was a long one....

If you're thinking of Shaneen Allen, you need to get your facts straight. She was not transporting her gun in the manner required for safe passage under the federal FOPA.

She was not transporting her pistol unloaded, in a locked container. She had her pistol loaded with hollow-points in her purse next to here in her car. She had no defense, nor did she claim a defense, under the FOPA.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

If you're thinking of Shaneen Allen, you need to get your facts straight. She was not transporting her gun in the manner required for safe passage under the federal FOPA.

She was not transporting her pistol unloaded, in a locked container. She had her pistol loaded with hollow-points in her purse next to here in her car. She had no defense, nor did she claim a defense, under the FOPA.

In addition, she was from Pennsylvania and she was arrested in New Jersey. She was not transporting a firearm through New Jersey, she was on the way to visit someone IN New Jersey. No FOPA defense because her situation didn't meet any of the fundamental requirements of the FOPA.

[Armed_Chicagoan]

Originally Posted by Irish Jack

The Illinois Police are not friendly to anyone transporting across their state. The problem is being charged over a small misstep. You could lose your right to own a firearm any where.

Where are you getting this stuff? Transport laws in Illinois are not that bad at all.

(720 ILCS 5/24-1)
Sec. 24-1. Unlawful use of weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
......
(a) (4) does not apply to or affect transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions:
(i) are broken down in a non-functioning state; or
(ii) are not immediately accessible; or
(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case,
firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card; or
(iv) are carried or possessed in accordance with

the Firearm Concealed Carry Act by a person who has been issued a currently valid license under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act;

In 2011 the Illinois Supreme Court ruled 7-0 that out of state residents do not need a FOID card in Illinois v. Holmes, so (iii) counts as legal transport for non-Illinois residents who don't have a FOID card. "Other container" includes the console or glove box of your car.

Illinois laws aren't nearly as bad as people think they are.

[junglebob]

The OP asked what to do when going though a state that doesn't have reciprocity. Reciprocity with his state I assume is what he means. He mentions Illinois, and as has been mentioned they don't offer reciprocity but do allow non-residents who can carry in their home state to have a loaded handgun in their vehicle, just can't exit vehicle with a loaded handgun.

Depending on the state, if the state he is traveling in offers recognition of Utah or Florida CC License, or Arizona. Or even Pennsylvania if that happens to be the state he is going to. I had the Pa LTC for many years before Illinois became a shall issue carry state. You do need your states LTC to get Pa. Pa recognizes 28 states so this could be helpful for a lot of folks. Also the Pa LTC is usually issued while you wait and the cost is $20 for 5 years.

[Aguila Blanca]

But thanks to Pennsylvania's former attorney general (who has since resigned as a result of a felony conviction), with maybe one or two exceptions (I've lost track) PA now only recognizes other states' permits for residents of those states. So, for example, a valid Florida permit will no longer allow a New York state resident to carry concealed in Pennsylvania.

[junglebob]

AquilaBlanca, You are right. Pa doesn't recognize non-resident LTC from Arizona, Florida, Mississippi, Utah or Virginia. They do recognize them for their states residents'

I guess there might be some states that will offer a non-resident LTC that might be good in Pa if you can't get your states LTC.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by junglebob

I guess there might be some states that will offer a non-resident LTC that might be good in Pa if you can't get your states LTC.

If there are, it's only because former AG Kane didn't have time to modify the reciprocity agreements before she was convicted and removed from office. All the states you named above were at one time recognized in PA regardless of whether or not the holder was a resident of the issuing state. Ms. Kane made it her personal agenda to revise all those reciprocity agreements to eliminate that "loophole." I think Utah was the last to fall.

[junglebob]

Aquila Blanca, Interesting that the Pa Attorney General was sent to prison. I don't think we've had an attorney general go to prison. The present one in Illinois is no friend of the second amendment and I'd like her out of office so I wouldn't mind it happening. We have had 4 of the last 7 governors go to prison.

Blagojevich , a democrat, went to prison for trying to sell Obama's U.S. Senate seat, before him Ryan, a republican, went to prison for selling commercial drivers licenses, this was when he was Secretary of State. See both democrat and republican governors here have equal opportunity to make license plates.

[Chris Karma]

I have asked him about this subject, he tells me that most agencies in NY will arrest, he had never heard of firearm owners protection act until I told him about it.
I told him its legal to go through NY like to VT or something, he would have to arrest anyway because that is the way his agency handles it, maybe the Judge would obey the law but I doubt it.

It's horrible, an attack on a basic civil right, so I avoid my home state - and pray for national reciprocity