Question about 590 action

Zach Vonler · January 10, 2001, 04:27 PM

I just got a 590A1 last weekend, and while dry firing noticed a somewhat bothersome trait. If I pull back on the foreend before pulling the trigger, then the action stays locked after the hammer drops. I have to actually release pressure on the foreend, letting it go forward a little bit, before it will go back. This is in contrast to my mom's Win 1300, which has an action where one can keep constant tension on the foreend to speed up the cycling a little bit. I didn't notice this "feature" of the 590 to be a problem at the range (it's probably hard to duplicate under conditions of recoil) but I'm a little concerned that I could get into a high-stress situation (most likely a competition in my case) where I would lose some time due to not remembering I had to let up on the action for a second before it would go back. Has anyone ever had this happen to them? Is there a way to change the action so that it can function like the 1300 does?

TwoGuns · January 10, 2001, 06:09 PM

Same thing happens with my Mossberg 500. Not sure what it is, but it is a tad annoying.

Dave McC · January 11, 2001, 06:57 AM

Best shooting form REQUIRES using the support arm to pull the weapon back into the shoulder cup,so this means adapting to a less effective form to accomodate an inferior action.

I've no idea if this can be fixed, but I do know the 500 I briefly owned didn't have this problem. If you can, get it fixed, if you can't, trade it off.

nedfig · January 11, 2001, 01:29 PM

Dump that POS Mossberg

No, I'm just kidding. Mine does it sometimes when I pull back on the forend. I have never had a problem under competition or timed shooting.

Every weapon has it's manual of arms or whatever it's called. If your willing to learn it, keep the 590. If not, refer to opening statement.

DeanG · January 11, 2001, 01:34 PM

I was always taught that the proper shooting form requires the firing hand to pull the shotgun securly back into the shoulder pocket. The support hand does just that, it adds additional support to balance the front end of the long gun and thats all. You should be able to fire your long gun one handed though admitedly using two hands is easier. I also shoot a 590A-1 and have never had the forend cause a problem using this method.

Good shooting,

Dean

January 11, 2001, 02:10 PM

As to the cause: There is a long tab, or "finger", if you will, that angles upward out of the trigger group, under spring pressure, when the hammer is cocked. As the bolt goes home, this finger pops up behind the bolt to prevent it from moving backward. It drops out of the way as the hammer falls (the other end of this finger is, in fact, the action release button). When the forearm is held to the rear, friction between the back of the bolt (or bolt carrier, can't remember offhand exactly where the contact is made) and the end of the "finger" prevents the finger from dropping out of the way. You can't reproduce the problem under recoil because the sudden rearward movement relieves rearward pressure on the forend. Some variation on this design is universal among pump shotguns.

If you're really worried about it, you might polish the end of the finger and the back of the bolt carrier where the finger bears. Use a cleaning patch and a little JB bore compound. Just smooth it out; don't remove any metal.

AlanD · January 11, 2001, 07:02 PM

Jeff, many thanks, as I also had this problem. Now I understand why it occured during dry-fire practice, but not at the range.

DML · January 11, 2001, 11:13 PM

This is normal. Try it with an 870 and you will find the same thing.

One note. Some shooting schools are teaching FORWARD pressure on the forend. That is, you pull the stock into the shoulder with your right hand and pull the forend away from the shoulder with the left hand. It takes some practice, but it reduces felt recoil and muzzle flip. I saw a highly trained police officer shoot an 870 so fast that all 5 shells were in the air at the same time and he hit 5 six inch steel plates at 12 yards while doing it. Granted, he was shooting light trap loads, but there was no noticable recoil or muzzle flip.

The shooting was done with a Vang Comp modified 870 with a 14" barrel. I can give you the names of the gentlemen conducting the demo if you are interested.

Dave McC · January 12, 2001, 08:53 AM

Dean, more than one road leads to Rome....

By pulling back with the support hand as well as the firing hand, one gets to start the shuck a little faster, which eats a little kick at the same time.It also seems to aid consistency, a prerequisite for hits.

DML, even a slowpoke like me can get 3 or 4 shells in the air simultaneously with a heavy 870, light loads,and practice at doing same.

SECRET INSTRUCTOR TRICK:

Since instructors have to act like the Diety for the rookies,and must NEVER miss, lots of us act like we're wearing that big red S on our chests. One way to do this is to use a shotgun that looks like the issue stuff but has some "advantages".For a while, my personal 870(now the HD 870 you all must be getting tired of hearing about) not only had all the bells and whistles to cut the kick, but an old style 2 lb plus steel mag plug stuck under the recoil pad. When talking about kick to tyros,I could load up a light load and shoot it off one handed, duelling style.Another showoff trick was to load up 5 rds, and traverse fire 5 targets at say 15 yards,with alacrity. Rookies were highly impressed,and I'd tell them, "you can do it too".

Dunno about that pulling forward stuff in a tense and crucial situation, but if it works for them, fine.

nedfig · January 15, 2001, 09:45 PM

>so this means adapting to a less effective form to >accomodate an inferior action.

Well, well, well. I just got out the old Wingmaster (circa 1970) and pulled back on the fore end while pulling the trigger and the forearm would not move back. I had to push it forward, then pull it back.

ned

**4V50 Gary** · January 15, 2001, 10:04 PM

Dave McD, you're a sneaky old guy!

Why didn't I ever think of that?

Ledbetter · January 15, 2001, 11:39 PM

Dave, we wouldn't be here if we got tired of hearing about guns.

Regards.

DML · January 16, 2001, 03:42 AM

Dave McC:

You said the magic word, PRACTICE. Almost no one picks up an 870 and instantly becomes a good shot. It's not that easy to acquire and hit 5 six inch targets in less then 3 seconds. The pattern size out of a Vang Comp barrel is about 3" at that range.

The gentlemen I referred to can do the same thing with standard buckshot loads with a duty gun.* They shoot light loads because they are cheaper. Pulling forward on the forend works. Like everything else, it takes lots of practice and conditioning until it becomes the natural thing to do. One would expect an instructor to be able to shoot better then his students. If he can't, why bother going to him?

*This particular 870 had a 14" Vang Comped barrel. Other then MMC sights, the only things added were a Surefire forend and a 1 shot magazine tube extension. Total weight was about 7 lbs. unloaded.

Dave McC · January 16, 2001, 07:55 AM

Thanks, guys....

Ain't a soul on earth with enough natural talent to get good with a shotgun after but a few hours of time. With the right attitude, fit and instruction the road to a reasonable level of proficiency is a lot shorter than the one I took.

What worked for me was the immersion technique.I concentrated my spare time on getting better. I read about it, handled my firearms every day,ran through lots of ammo, pestered those who knew more than I about minutiae,and basically lived and breathed shotgunning.It worked, but it would have been a lot shorter process if I were A, not pigheaded and stubborn, and B, had better teachers at the start. 20-20 hindsight...

January 15, 2001, 11:39 PM	#12
Ledbetter Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2000 Location: California USA Posts: 4,533	Keep'em coming Dave, we wouldn't be here if we got tired of hearing about guns. Regards.

January 10, 2001, 04:27 PM	#1
Zach Vonler Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 1999 Posts: 126	I just got a 590A1 last weekend, and while dry firing noticed a somewhat bothersome trait. If I pull back on the foreend before pulling the trigger, then the action stays locked after the hammer drops. I have to actually release pressure on the foreend, letting it go forward a little bit, before it will go back. This is in contrast to my mom's Win 1300, which has an action where one can keep constant tension on the foreend to speed up the cycling a little bit. I didn't notice this "feature" of the 590 to be a problem at the range (it's probably hard to duplicate under conditions of recoil) but I'm a little concerned that I could get into a high-stress situation (most likely a competition in my case) where I would lose some time due to not remembering I had to let up on the action for a second before it would go back. Has anyone ever had this happen to them? Is there a way to change the action so that it can function like the 1300 does?

January 10, 2001, 06:09 PM	#2
TwoGuns Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2000 Location: Sierra Madre, CA Posts: 173	Same thing happens with my Mossberg 500. Not sure what it is, but it is a tad annoying.

January 11, 2001, 06:57 AM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Best shooting form REQUIRES using the support arm to pull the weapon back into the shoulder cup,so this means adapting to a less effective form to accomodate an inferior action. I've no idea if this can be fixed, but I do know the 500 I briefly owned didn't have this problem. If you can, get it fixed, if you can't, trade it off.

January 11, 2001, 01:29 PM	#4
nedfig Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2000 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 263	Dump that POS Mossberg No, I'm just kidding. Mine does it sometimes when I pull back on the forend. I have never had a problem under competition or timed shooting. Every weapon has it's manual of arms or whatever it's called. If your willing to learn it, keep the 590. If not, refer to opening statement.

January 11, 2001, 01:34 PM	#5
DeanG Member Join Date: December 7, 2000 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 64	I was always taught that the proper shooting form requires the firing hand to pull the shotgun securly back into the shoulder pocket. The support hand does just that, it adds additional support to balance the front end of the long gun and thats all. You should be able to fire your long gun one handed though admitedly using two hands is easier. I also shoot a 590A-1 and have never had the forend cause a problem using this method. Good shooting, Dean

January 11, 2001, 02:10 PM	#6
Jeff, CA Guest Posts: n/a	As to the cause: There is a long tab, or "finger", if you will, that angles upward out of the trigger group, under spring pressure, when the hammer is cocked. As the bolt goes home, this finger pops up behind the bolt to prevent it from moving backward. It drops out of the way as the hammer falls (the other end of this finger is, in fact, the action release button). When the forearm is held to the rear, friction between the back of the bolt (or bolt carrier, can't remember offhand exactly where the contact is made) and the end of the "finger" prevents the finger from dropping out of the way. You can't reproduce the problem under recoil because the sudden rearward movement relieves rearward pressure on the forend. Some variation on this design is universal among pump shotguns. If you're really worried about it, you might polish the end of the finger and the back of the bolt carrier where the finger bears. Use a cleaning patch and a little JB bore compound. Just smooth it out; don't remove any metal.

January 11, 2001, 07:02 PM	#7
AlanD Member Join Date: November 2, 2000 Location: TN Posts: 45	Jeff, many thanks, as I also had this problem. Now I understand why it occured during dry-fire practice, but not at the range.

January 11, 2001, 11:13 PM	#8
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	This is normal. Try it with an 870 and you will find the same thing. One note. Some shooting schools are teaching FORWARD pressure on the forend. That is, you pull the stock into the shoulder with your right hand and pull the forend away from the shoulder with the left hand. It takes some practice, but it reduces felt recoil and muzzle flip. I saw a highly trained police officer shoot an 870 so fast that all 5 shells were in the air at the same time and he hit 5 six inch steel plates at 12 yards while doing it. Granted, he was shooting light trap loads, but there was no noticable recoil or muzzle flip. The shooting was done with a Vang Comp modified 870 with a 14" barrel. I can give you the names of the gentlemen conducting the demo if you are interested.

January 12, 2001, 08:53 AM	#9
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Dean, more than one road leads to Rome.... By pulling back with the support hand as well as the firing hand, one gets to start the shuck a little faster, which eats a little kick at the same time.It also seems to aid consistency, a prerequisite for hits. DML, even a slowpoke like me can get 3 or 4 shells in the air simultaneously with a heavy 870, light loads,and practice at doing same. SECRET INSTRUCTOR TRICK: Since instructors have to act like the Diety for the rookies,and must NEVER miss, lots of us act like we're wearing that big red S on our chests. One way to do this is to use a shotgun that looks like the issue stuff but has some "advantages".For a while, my personal 870(now the HD 870 you all must be getting tired of hearing about) not only had all the bells and whistles to cut the kick, but an old style 2 lb plus steel mag plug stuck under the recoil pad. When talking about kick to tyros,I could load up a light load and shoot it off one handed, duelling style.Another showoff trick was to load up 5 rds, and traverse fire 5 targets at say 15 yards,with alacrity. Rookies were highly impressed,and I'd tell them, "you can do it too". Dunno about that pulling forward stuff in a tense and crucial situation, but if it works for them, fine.

January 15, 2001, 09:45 PM	#10
nedfig Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2000 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 263	>so this means adapting to a less effective form to >accomodate an inferior action. Well, well, well. I just got out the old Wingmaster (circa 1970) and pulled back on the fore end while pulling the trigger and the forearm would not move back. I had to push it forward, then pull it back. ned

January 15, 2001, 10:04 PM	#11
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,833	Dave McD, you're a sneaky old guy! Why didn't I ever think of that?

January 16, 2001, 03:42 AM	#13
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	Dave McC: You said the magic word, PRACTICE. Almost no one picks up an 870 and instantly becomes a good shot. It's not that easy to acquire and hit 5 six inch targets in less then 3 seconds. The pattern size out of a Vang Comp barrel is about 3" at that range. The gentlemen I referred to can do the same thing with standard buckshot loads with a duty gun.* They shoot light loads because they are cheaper. Pulling forward on the forend works. Like everything else, it takes lots of practice and conditioning until it becomes the natural thing to do. One would expect an instructor to be able to shoot better then his students. If he can't, why bother going to him? *This particular 870 had a 14" Vang Comped barrel. Other then MMC sights, the only things added were a Surefire forend and a 1 shot magazine tube extension. Total weight was about 7 lbs. unloaded.

January 16, 2001, 07:55 AM	#14
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks, guys.... Ain't a soul on earth with enough natural talent to get good with a shotgun after but a few hours of time. With the right attitude, fit and instruction the road to a reasonable level of proficiency is a lot shorter than the one I took. What worked for me was the immersion technique.I concentrated my spare time on getting better. I read about it, handled my firearms every day,ran through lots of ammo, pestered those who knew more than I about minutiae,and basically lived and breathed shotgunning.It worked, but it would have been a lot shorter process if I were A, not pigheaded and stubborn, and B, had better teachers at the start. 20-20 hindsight...