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May 5, 2014, 08:22 AM | #1 |
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Stopping power, true or fiction?
The ammo makers almost universally use ballistic gelatin as a measure of the effectiveness of ammunition.
And it's readily accepted as a guide, in choosing what we would use for self defense. But should it? The author of the article, a trauma surgeon who has seen, first hand, the results of many shootings, says maybe not. And he says flesh and blood is very different from test media. http://www.policemag.com/channel/wea...realities.aspx
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May 5, 2014, 09:04 AM | #2 |
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Ammo makers use ballistic gelatin testing as a proxy measure for the effectiveness of a bullet/load combination.
Ballistic gel is not an absolute indicator as to the actual performance of a particular load, but its virtue and the reason for its industry-wide acceptance is that it allows for a standard and objective comparison of different ammunition. I don't see any ammunition manufacturers marketing gel testing as indicative of "stopping power," but I do see a lot of people on the gun boards who think they're the same thing. |
May 5, 2014, 10:28 AM | #3 |
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You pose a good question, g. whillikers, . . . one that has befuddled, aggravated, and eluded us all for many a year.
No, . . . gelatin does not perfectly mimic the human torso. But, . . . yes, . . . it does a better job than a brick, cement block, 2 x 4, or a bathtub full of water. The thing is with gelatin, . . . provided it is made consistently, . . . a level of comparison can be made between two rounds, . . . between power levels, . . . between bullet designs, . . . etc. That, in effect, is what it really is, . . . a level playing field for comparison, and should never be taken as much more. Inside the human torso, . . . you have bones, blood vessels, vital organs, muscles, . . . and each is different in size, proximity, angle of shot, etc. in each shooting incident, . . . making it almost impossible to get any real finite comparisons other than the blatantly obvious. Gelatin will tell you that a 3 inch / 10 gauge slug probably will be a better one shot stopper than a .22 short. But, . . . that should have been obvious from the beginning. Using gelatin to support the argument that a .45 caliber, 230 grain, BTHP is far superior to a .45 caliber, 220 grain hard cast lead slug, . . . just might be a stretch, . . . either way. May God bless, Dwight
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May 5, 2014, 10:58 AM | #4 |
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Yep, consistency is the key to good testing. Ballistic gel is valuable in eliminating variables. As said, the path of a bullet in a defensive shooting crosses multiple interfaces of cloth, skin, fat, muscle, and often bone. It is probably fair to say that no two bullets ever take the exact same path. Ballistic gel standardizes the bullet's path and resistance, so it makes for valid comparisons.
Quantifying stopping power itself would seem to be impossible because of the multiplicity of variables. Ballistic gel shows the potential for penetration and expansion of a round under ideal conditions. It is one factor for consideration, but not the only thing to think about. Real world results are also worth consideration, too, as long as part of your consideration is the realization that variables in the path, pain, psychological effects, vasculature, and so on are not controlled in such retrospective data. |
May 5, 2014, 11:24 AM | #5 |
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If one bullet design will expend its energy on impact and turn a area the size of a basket ball into " jelly " and another design will zip through and take most of the energy with it that shows what stopping power is . I know fmj's are leathal and bullet placment is critical and some times you will have to shoot throu cover but if I think there is a elevated chance of trouble I load performance ammo like Hydro shock hollow points .
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May 5, 2014, 11:32 AM | #6 | |
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Quote:
But that is all it does. Ballistic gelatin test results do not absolute guarantee real world results. And there is no one test you can do today that can absolutely predict that one cartridge will give a better result than another when you get one shot at the guy charging you with a knife next Tuesday at 3:00 am. Reliable information about penetration and expansion in "tissue like" media can be useful information when choosing a self defense cartridge. We just need to recognize that it's not definitive.
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May 5, 2014, 12:02 PM | #7 |
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Has anyone done tests on cadavers, or large animal carcasses?
It's been done for archery, on deer and pigs. The results there were as expected, the bow and arrow makers of the late medieval period knew what they were doing. And what worked for them is still valid. If it weren't for the restrictions on ammo design for the military, no doubt there would be plenty of studies on modern ammo. But, as it stands, the only info available from the military is for "approved" ammo. How about studies from police coroners, maybe? Probably the best approach is to just rely on rapid fire accuracy, instead of the bullet.
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May 5, 2014, 12:03 PM | #8 |
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I'm going to have to agree with the doctor that wrote the article 100% Especially his closing statement ;
"... shot placement with any commercially available ammunition will offer you the best chance of maximizing your duty ammunition's stopping power." There is another member on this forum that has a quote (and I'm paraphrasing here) 'I'd rather be shot in the foot with a .50 BMG than shot in the head with a .22LR' Which makes perfect sense to me. Getting to my point, in my years of experience, I have NEVER seen a deer (even with a slug) get hit and literally be knocked to the ground by the force of the projectile. Shot placement through the heart definitely ensures that they don't go more than 50 yards or so but lets say the deer got hit in the gut by a 12 ga... It would probably run off and die a mile away by a horrible death, and all the while was never knocked to the ground. (This goes back to shot placement) I apologize for the hunting comparison when the OP was discussing handgun defense ammo selection, but I don't feel that ballistic gelatin should be used as a guide for bullet effectiveness (much like how we select our hunting ammo)
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May 5, 2014, 12:08 PM | #9 |
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Ballistic gelatin is good for what it's used for and that is creating a level playing field when comparing bullets. The thing is that the gelatin mainly mimics soft flesh and not muscle and bone so it doesn't show 'true' performance.
Due to the gel not having bones in it, it can make certain bullets look like they perform better than they will in a human or animal target. For example, that extremely gimmicky R.I.P. round. http://g2rip.com/ In gelatin, this bullet almost looks like it could perform well. The thing is, gel is soft, and those little shreds that strip off the bullet as shrapnel, will travel through the gel pretty well. The down side is, if you were to use these bullets for their intended SD purposes, and you shot someone in the chest, chances are all those pieces would breakoff and stop when they hit the ribs, not really doing much damage. In reality a dead pig would probably be a better test for bullet performance in humans, the problem is every pig is different, so you cant get 100% consistent results, when testing different rounds. The gel serves it's purpose fine, but it will not prove performance on game or humans for SD. |
May 5, 2014, 01:28 PM | #10 | |||||||
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There is data, and there are studies, and we have a good deal of knowledge about wound physiology. But we keep getting into these "ring-around-the-rosie" discussions because, I guess, a lot of people are dissatisfied that there really is no definitive answer. Perhaps the real conclusion(s) with regard to self defense could be summarized as follows:
I've posted the following before and might as well post it again here: Let's consider how shooting someone will actually cause him to stop what he's doing.
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May 5, 2014, 01:40 PM | #11 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Just like with the arrow examples you noted above, not all arrows worked all the time depending on the angles hit, bones hit, tissues, hit, etc. Same for bullets. The one thing arrow makers testing carcasses have found out just like the bullet folks is that shooting dead things always produces a stop and shooting live things does not. Funny article. The guy wants "stopping power" dropped from use but then continues to use the phrase in the article and even offering what should be the correct definition of it, LOL, and that definition being rather vague, covering two of the suggested possibilities listed. Strange that as a doctor, he has failed to note that ammunition, like medicines or medical treatments, doesn't also work of a given individual in a given manner. He can't tell me that my broken leg will heal in XX.xx days or exactly how well my leg will feel in XX.xx days, despite being a surgeon. He can't tell me how much pain reliever is needed to relieve my pain sufficiently despite countless studies in that area of medicine. If human bodies were 100% uniform with one another and people getting shot were getting shot in 100% uniform manners with 100% uniform ammunition, etc., then we could expect 100% uniform results, but still would not get them. However, human bodies are not 100% uniform. People's attitudes and behaviors under stress and in responding to stress are not uniform. When people get shot, they don't get shot in a uniform manner to everyone else either. The problem isn't so much with using ballistic gelatin as it is with the combinations and permutations of variables that influence whether a given person being shot will be stopped or will not be stopped. These certainly include but are not limited to ballistics, bullet construction, velocity at impact (relates to shooting distances), angle of entry, trajectory through the body, health of the individual, size and shape of the individual, mindset of the individual, etc. As we have seen all too many times, the difference between life and death can come down to mere fractions of an inch and so mere fractions of an inch difference can be what influences differences in performance. When Doc Vail can control for all these combinations and permutations, then maybe we should consider revisiting whether or not gel testing is valid or not. {I see Frank's and my posts overlapped. His answer is probably much better}
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May 5, 2014, 03:17 PM | #12 |
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There is no perfect way to predict what will happen. Lots of studies have been done, using lots of methods. The ballistic gel tests, while not perfect, are probably the most reliable way to predict what will happen.
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May 5, 2014, 05:29 PM | #13 |
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Gelatin allows a like-with-like comparison, inasmuch as the test conditions can be standardised across all ammo tested. Anyone wishing to question the findings can reproduce the test conditions exactly and publish their own conclusions.
It removes many of the variables and gives a general (usually an optimum) indication of how an expanding bullet will behave, and with sufficiently high film speeds or frame rates can allow analysis of how those expanding noses actually work and whether they do exactly what the designer intended them to do. The last controlled human tests that I know of in any democratic nation were conducted at the turn of the 20th Century, and were performed on the cadavers of executed criminals. Not long after this, the Hague Convention outlawed expanding smallarms ammo and the point became moot. The best we have now is the uncontrolled tests which are the accounts of law-enforcement officers and armed civilians acting in defence of themselves and others. Unfortunately, due to the nature of the encounters, these are at best collections of anecdotes and not the ideal, standardised data we would love to have. Trying to draw conclusions from them is fraught with hazard, and anyone doing so had better admit the limitations of their study up-front. |
May 5, 2014, 05:37 PM | #14 |
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Stopping power is pretty much a useless term that gets used by people with low info on defensive shooting. Stopping what? 100 lb. granny or 280lb. PCP freak.
The FBI testing added performance through normally encountered barriers. Cloth, sheet rock steel & glass. Nothing can be definitive on a subject with that many variables. At least FBI protocol gives you some idea how the bullet may perform after these barriers. Bones can't be done consistently so they will have to remain one of the millions of variables. Many people want to believe that they have THE answer to the ammo question. They should spend the time working on their skill that they do talking about the unknowable. |
May 5, 2014, 06:54 PM | #15 | |
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Stopping power has SOME truth in it. Morgue monsters, those who visit the autopsy as well as interview the cops and citizens who used the guns to stop the bad guys have found that larger more powerful rounds DO TEND to stop better. Massad Ayoob, Marshal, Sanow, and others. More powerful rounds like .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, DO TEND to stop better. Rounds with JHP and SWCHP designs DO TEND to stop better. When shots are placed in very vital areas they DO TEND to stop better. David Spauling once wrote that after viewing a very large number of surveillance videos that caught shootouts that you could see a more definite reaction to the ones shot with larger more powerful rounds. So with all that said the wises choice is to find a gun/ammo combination that is the most powerful one you can control and hit accurately and still carry daily. And that advice goes back way before even Col. Jeff Cooper. Deaf
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May 5, 2014, 07:01 PM | #16 |
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"Stopping power" and "knockdown power" are mostly fictional. Some will contend that a .45 will "knock a man off his feet", or "stop a charging bull in its tracks."
Well, here is a thought. During the Civil War, Confederate General Leonidas K. Polk was shot while observing the enemy. According to one eyewitness, he was not knocked down, but stood for a few seconds and then fell. The weapon was a 20 pdr. Parrott rifle; the projectile was 3 2/3 inches in diameter and weighed around 140,000 grains, just a bit bigger than a .45 ACP bullet. Jim |
May 5, 2014, 08:50 PM | #17 | ||
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The most relevant statement in Dr. Vail's article:
Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunately Dr. Vail doesn't provide any data to backup his statement. The primary measure of "stopping power" is the amount of permanent damage produced by a bullet. Properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin provides a REASONABLE MEASURE of terminal performance and wounding effects. |
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May 5, 2014, 09:10 PM | #18 | ||
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Most people survive gun shots. Hint hint.... The police reports of the incidents matter so much more cause alot of them were shot, stopped, but still lived. Quote:
There are freak incidences where people have survived crowbars blown through their heads to. But in GENERAL, larger diameter cartridges tend to stop better. More powerful rounds tend to stop better. And more precise shot placement tends to stop better. But just case a Parrott cannon ball didn't stop one person, or a puny .36 Navy Colt drop'em dead, does not mean stopping power does not exist. Deaf
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May 6, 2014, 10:29 AM | #19 |
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Terminal Ballistics is part art, part science
The only thing that you can really count on is that bullets don't get smaller when they hit the target.
Terms like 'stopping power' and 'knockdown power' are interesting concepts but how do you base any meaningful numbers around them? |
May 6, 2014, 11:20 AM | #20 |
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I'm just going to weigh in with a 99% agreement with Frank Ettin's post and (mostly/maybe/hopefully) leave it at that.
It's an interesting discussion, provided all of the parties involved are interested in a rational discussion. It's been my experience that many (most?) are not, and simply wish to hawk/hype for the gun/caliber/brand they prefer, absent any objective reason or evidence. As irritating as that can be, this still amounts to arguing about angels dancing on the head of a pin. If you choose a quality, duty-rated round, verify it works reliably in your gun(s), AND train/practice enough to be reasonably proficient ... that's where the line twixt life and death is drawn.
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May 6, 2014, 12:31 PM | #21 | |
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May 6, 2014, 01:49 PM | #22 | |
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I'm not sure if it would be psychological or physiological, but a person's body can shut itself down before blood loss forces it, and without a conscious "ouch that hurts" decision. Think TKO from body shots in a boxing match. Not that it's particularly helpful though, as what will send a person into shock is probably even more variable than terminal ballistics.
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May 6, 2014, 02:36 PM | #23 |
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In this context "shock" is generally defined as lack of perfusion of blood to vital organs like the brain.
As such, shock is one effect of massive blood loss ... especially when it results in a drop of blood pressure. So, item "II" above: "... massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function ..." pretty much covers that.
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May 6, 2014, 02:53 PM | #24 |
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The term "shock" is also sometimes used to refer to "acute stress reaction", a psychological response to extreme trauma.
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May 6, 2014, 03:31 PM | #25 |
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I doubt anyone here would disagree that a .50 BMG shot to the middle torso has a much better chance of immediately incapacitating an assailant than a .22 LR shot at precisely the same spot. The question that remains is how much difference is there in the calibers in between? Or how about a tank mortar round to the torso?
I choose to balance "damage per shot" with "number of shots available". My HD pistol is a 9mm 18+1 with Federal HST cartridges. My HD shotgun is a semi-auto 12ga with 8+1 rounds of #4 buckshot. |
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