Rimfire sorting, yes or no?

[taylorce1]

Other than making my wife think I lost my mind is it worth it?

So the back story is I have aquired a lot of .22 WMR ammunition and have a fairly accurate Savage 93 FV rifle. So I was sighting in my new scope for the rifle the other day and I had some 5 shot groups go under 1" and others over 2" at 100 with the same ammunition. I've always thought of this as a max 150 yard rifle on prairie dogs, if lucky I could stretch it to 200 yards. I felt I was shooting pretty consistent so I was wondering how I could make it more accurate.

So I pulled out two bricks of Federal Premium 30 grain TNT HP and my RCBS 1500 gr pocket scale and took over the kitchen table last night. I was surprised at the wide range of variation in cartridge weights with a low of 54.6 to a high of 56.1 grains. The largest average was between 55.4-55.6 grains. Here is how it broke down.

54.6-54.9 gr = 10
55-55.2 gr = 197
55.3 gr = 86
55.4 gr = 171
55.5 gr = 166
55.6 gr = 239
55.7 gr = 60
55.8-56.1 = 71

I know the proof might be in the targets to tell me if it's worth it or not. Anyway I have several more thousands of rounds to sort, that I'm not looking forward to if this shrinks my groups. I guess if it'll give me more consistent hits beyond 150 yards on pasture poodles I'll be happy.

[tangolima]

Try comparing the groups in the vertical and horizontal directions. If they have similar vertical distribution, the difference in group size is caused by windage, and sorting the ammo may not help.

Take one round from each group and shoot them through chrono. It is too collect data set of MV versus weight. A plot of the data points will tell story.

-TL

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[jpx2rk]

Been lots of discussion about whether it works or not in the RF Benchrest world, some say yes, some say no. One local shooter I know said he did it for a season and it helped his scores, but very time consuming. Most comments say it's not worth it due to time/effort vs the gain. On the magnum round or 17hmr, I've not read of anyone doing it, but I have a 17hmr and not all that impressed with it's killing/knockdown power on sage rates out to 100 yds, much less 150 or beyond.

I like (prefer) the red mist/splat factor, so I keep my RF shots to 100yds or less. I go to the CF for shots beyond 100 yds for the most part.

[44 AMP]

OK, let me get this straight, you weighed two 500rnd bricks and out of the thousand rounds, the variation between heaviest and lightest was approximately 1.5gr. AND, in about 90% of the round the difference in weight was less than 1 grain. Is that right??

Its early for me, I'm only on my first cup of coffee, so my math isn't going to be precise down to several decimal points, but consider this....

loaded round weighs about 55gr...so 1% of that would be what? 0.055gr??

If I'm looking at it right, the max weight variation was a bit under 3% and about 90% of the rounds weighed were less than 2% variance in weight,

AND, since you were weighing loaded rounds, you don't know if that small weight variation was in the bullets, the cases, the powder, the primer or some combination of those.

.22WMR hunting ammo? not MATCH ammo, or anything like that, right??

I think your wife is right.....

Whether anything is "worth it" or not is an individual value judgement, right now, you have a bunch of rounds you have grouped by weight. That's one step. The next step is to shoot those rounds under as close to perfect conditions as possible to see IF the difference in weights makes any difference downrange from your rifle, in your hands.

IF there is a significant difference, then you get to decide if the effort of weighing and sorting justifies the result. If there is no significant difference, then I would consider weighing and sorting a waste of time.

Good Luck! Have fun, BE SAFE...

[Adventurer 2]

I'm curious to hear about what you find when you shoot your weighted ammo. I have a 77/22 WMR to 75 yards -- tiny groups. But the groups open up to 2 MOA at 100 yards. If you find an improvement in groups by weighing your 22 WMR ammo -- I think i will do the same.

[taylorce1]

I don't remember exactly the chronograph numbers, but for 20 rounds I had like a 300 fps ES and high 60s SD. I know the traditional way to sort rimfire is rim thickness, but I dont have the gage to properly measure it. That's why I sorted by weight.

I also understand it's a .22 WMR, a round not necessarily known for printing tiny groups.

[stagpanther]

Try premium manufacturers like RWS, Ely and Lapua if you want truly consistent rimfire ammo.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

.22WMR hunting ammo? not MATCH ammo, or anything like that, right??

It's .22 WMR and I haven't found any "match" ammunition yet. I'm just wanting a little better consistency on paper, and realize this will probably be an almost fruitless pursuit. However, on the off chance it shrinks my groups by a half inch or better at 100 then I might consider it worthwhile.

The problem is what can you control with rimfire ammunition?

stagpanther the only one of those three that make .22 WMR is RWS.

[44 AMP]

The problem is what can you control with rimfire ammunition?

Not very much. Unlike centerfire ammo you are loading, where you can weigh, measure, and sort all the components individually and combine the most uniform ones, and "adjust" them to fit your rifle best, to make your ammo, rimfires are pretty much a "take it as is, or leave it" kind of deal.

Paying extra $ for "match grade" ammo (if possible) is the only solution, what you are paying for is for the maker to take extra care and extra work (resulting in extra cost) so the ammo is more uniform (and therefore probably more accurate) than the standard production ammo.

And, on top of that, it may, or may not make a significant difference in YOUR gun and your type of shooting. If it does, then its up to you to decide if that difference in performance is worth the increased cost, or not.

[Scorch]

Not a rimfire expert by any means, but 22WMR is in a difficult velocity bracket. It starts to go trans-sonic about 140-150 yds and the groups open up quite a bit. I think weighing ammo and trying to find the "right stuff" might pay some dividends, but you still have to deal with physics. I've actually had better luck shooting 22LR at 200 yds than 22 mag.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Scorch

Not a rimfire expert by any means, but 22WMR is in a difficult velocity bracket. It starts to go trans-sonic about 140-150 yds and the groups open up quite a bit. I've actually had better luck shooting 22LR at 200 yds than 22 mag.

This load is subsonic at 170 yards, so I'd say your right at around 150 yds. I've had better luck with .22 LR shooting targets at longer ranges with standard velocity ammunition under 1200 fps. HV rounds are probably experiencing the same as a .22 WMR when trans-sonic speeds are hit and have been more erratic for me as I've stretched the range.

Like I said this is just to see if I can get more consistent hits on prairie dogs on the fringes. This rifle has always been decent to 150 yards on prairie dogs. Also the .22 Mag just hits harder than the .22 LR.

[603Country]

Better barrel might be worth the cost if maximum accuracy is needed.

[taylorce1]

Thanks for making me laugh 603Country! I don't think I'd spend the money on a Savage 93 for a new barrel.

[berettaprofessor]

Isn't it generally accepted that at least 22lr benefits from sorting by rim thickness? Not by weight?

[Shadow9mm]

So, as I understand it, sorting by rim thickness is important to accuracy. With it being 22WMR not 22lr your ammo selection is a lot more limited. I would give it a try at least once and see how much of a difference it makes for you with your gun.

On a side note, I follow a channel on youtube called Mark and Sam after work. They do ELR (extreme long range) stuff. Pretty cool to watch 30-06 out at 3000yds. In any case they tried to do a series with 22WRM and had a bunch of problems getting it to shoot well and it might give you some insight. Heres is an update\summary of where they were at last I saw. There are several other vids they did on it if you want to go further down the rabbit hole. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upgvtFIUems

[taylorce1]

I don't have a rim thickness gage, nor do I intend to buy one right away. My Bergara BMR .22 lr is a far more consistent shooter than my Savage 93 .22 WMR at 100 yards. I do believe ammunition and velocity are the limiting factor of the .22 WMR. I'm just trying to work with what I have and save the expensive ammunition for more specialized shooting.

However with the costs of things I can afford to go down the rabbit hole with ammunition that I'm spending less on per 1000 rounds than a current brick of match grade small rifle primers. It takes far less time to sort 1000 rounds than to load 1000 at my single stage.

Plus when I was seriously into dogging years ago, I'd cull upwards of 50% of the bulk bullets I'd buy by sorting by weight, and then eventually BTO measurements. I still used the culls, but they didn't go to the pastures with me. I did eventually even stop doing that and started buying better quality bullets to reload with less variation than bulk bullets.

[taylorce1]

Tail chasing, I've decided. Best weight tested was 55.4 grains. First 10 shot group gave me a SD of 15, second time around had me at 29. I was hopeful at first, but not worth the effort. I doubt I'll rim sort either.

I'll just test other ammunition, I just orderd a brick of Remington Premier 33 grain .22 WMR. It should keep me supersonic beyond 200 yards. I also purchased a .17 HMR rifle on a whim (aka very cheap), we'll see on that one.

[stagpanther]

Not a rimfire expert by any means, but 22WMR is in a difficult velocity bracket. It starts to go trans-sonic about 140-150 yds and the groups open up quite a bit. I think weighing ammo and trying to find the "right stuff" might pay some dividends, but you still have to deal with physics. I've actually had better luck shooting 22LR at 200 yds than 22 mag.

This transonic aspect is absolutely key in rimfire IMO. The other thing about 22lr is that the demand for precision ammo is MUCH higher in 22lr than any other rimfire caliber; consequently the manufacturers put a lot more investment into making consistent ammunition. Everyone keeps trying to make rimfire ammo that succeeds in maintaining consistency through the transonic regime--I haven't seen any that notably succeeds--yet. Currently, it seems to me, the best state-of-the-art "ELR" 22lr ammo seems to exit the barrel right at the transonic barrier so that it "sorts itself out" to stabilize the rest of its flight at optimal subsonic.

I just orderd a brick of Remington Premier 33 grain .22 WMR. It should keep me supersonic beyond 200 yards. I also purchased a .17 HMR rifle on a whim (aka very cheap), we'll see on that one.

IMO, you're simply wasting your time, money and bore if you're seeking target comp grade ammo with low-priced budget ammo. You have to spend the money on a top-quality manufacturer if you really want ammo that is engineered so that all the components are consistent in the manufacturing process. Tolerances that affect performance in rimfire are minuscule compared to conventional non-rimfire.

It's been mentioned elsewhere on the forum that 22lr at 225/250 yds is a challenging "subculture" of precision rimfire ELR shooting. I agree with that; it is hugely challenging--and rewarding, as well as a great learning experience.

[std7mag]

Well Taylorce, it sounds like your about to go the Cutting Edge Bullets way!

They make a 22 solid copper bullet and market it with dies.
So if your REALLY interested in small groups, sounds like your gonna start handloading rimfire.

[taylorce1]

Nope, not going to happen. I'm perfectly happy with small groups from factory ammunition from my Bergara BMR .22 lr. What I'm intrested in is more consistent hits at 150+ yards on a 4X12 to 16" target. If the prairie dog is broadside I'll have a better chance, as I have less verticle than horizontal dispersion in all the ammunition tested. I just need to find some ammunition that's consistently 2 MOA or better at 100 yards in my .22 WMR. So far I haven't found it, and I've tried in 30 grain Hornady V-Max, CCI Maxi-Mag HP+V, Federal HP and TNT, as well as Fiocchi 40 gn HP. I have a few others to try, but I have at least a brick of each type I listed.

[tangolima]

Give Aguilar interceptor a try. It works well for me. But I'm too cheap use it on regular basis. It costs twice much as high speed.

For shooting closer than 100yd, their standard speed (subsonic) is very good.

Don't mind the smell it makes.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

Well Taylorce, it sounds like your about to go the Cutting Edge Bullets way!

They make a 22 solid copper bullet and market it with dies.
So if your REALLY interested in small groups, sounds like your gonna start handloading rimfire.

I've been trying for a few years to make cutting edge's 22lr bullets produce the mythical microgroups--my experience is I've been lucky when I come close to equaling the better factory lead cast bullets ammo. There are several reasons for that IMO. First--most barrels are made to optimize conventional 1:16 twist lead bullets, unless you stick with CE's 32 grain bullets you're going to have rough sledding with those kinds of barrels. So you'll need 1:9 twist or better with the bigger bullets and, if I were to do it again, probably ream the chamber and freebore specifically for the solid bullet anticipated to be used. As I mentioned above--tolerances are much smaller in rimfire; the COL, rim thickness and even powder charge weight must be measured in much smaller measurements than conventional primered ammo--a range of charges need hundreths of a grain accuracy for precision. The real promise of CE's solid copper bullets is extra long range (i.e. 600 yds or more); which has been done in terms of "hail Mary passes" making contact but as far as I known they haven't really achieved reliable repeatable consistency at those distances. That supersonic to subsonic transition remains the "boogieman" in 22lr ELR as far as I can tell.

[taylorce1]

@tangolima,

I know we've been in the weeds with this topic. However, it is ultimately about finding a way to make make my .22 WMR shoot better, not the .22 LR.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by taylorce1

@tangolima,



I know we've been in the weeds with this topic. However, it is ultimately about finding a way to make make my .22 WMR shoot better, not the .22 LR.

Sorry I lost track of it

BTW, do you have raw data of MV versus weight? I can do analysis on it if you wouldn't mind sharing. Thanks.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

Sorry I lost track of it

Me too, sorry for dragging the topic down.