Question regarding primer size .....

[jimbob86]

I am contmeplating reloading 7.62x25 ...... and have access to some boxer primed, brass cased loaded ammo ..... primer size says 4.4mm ..... what is that outside the metric system world?

[Magnum Wheel Man]

if it's boxer primed, it'll be either small pistol ( or could be small rifle, because of the higher pressure ) both primers are the same size...

[Mike Irwin]

The important thing is... What's the head stamp on the cases?

[Magnum Wheel Man]

^^^ I assume Mike is asking, because if it's 30 Mauser, it's loaded to lower pressures than 7.62 X 25, or because I think it's the PHSH 7.62 X 25 machine gun uses higher pressures than guns like the Tokerovs or CZ-52's ???

[jimbob86]

It's new manufactured 7.62x25, brass cased, boxer primed ..... made by Sellier & Beloit ..... the $26/50 price is bugging me ....but it's a source of good brass ....... Now I need a source of .311-312" 100 gr jacketed bullets that won't cost an arm and a leg .......

[Mike Irwin]

No, I'm asking because I was thinking if it has a metric sized primer it's going to be European or Asian, and possibly Berdan primed.

Sounds like they should take standard American small pistol primers, which are .175ish in diameter.

[Unclenick]

4.4 mm is 0.1732". Some old (circa 1980) Olin and Remington dimensions for small primers range from 0.1748" to 0.1756" for OD. The pockets recommended (Remington) for brass for these primers were 0.1740"±0.005", so the press fit would be 0.0003"-0.0021" interference.

I measured a new, never primed LC 5.56 NATO case and the small hole gauge showed it was 0.1744" at the narrowest point and 0.1746" at the widest point, so it seems to comply with that number. A new, never primed Winchester case measured 0.1739". I do not, however, trust these transfer measurements to be closer than 0.0002", so those are probably both within that old spec's limits.

When I look at QuickDESIGN, a German program, it assumes 0.1728" for a small primer pocket, which would be a pretty tight fit to American primers. But a 4.4 mm even primer, which would be 0.1732", would fit it nicely.

So, I don't know whether those cases will have a tight European pocket diameter, or if it will be American in size? If you use a primer pocket reamer or swager intended to remove military crimps, it will most certainly adjust the pocket to work with American small pistol primers, assuming it was Boxer and not Berdan primed.

[jimbob86]

Thanks, Unclenick. Exactly the answer I sought.

Does anyone load for this in a Tokarev ? I'm seeing different bullet daimeter recomendations on the web, most prevalent being .309" ....... I already load for a Nagant Revolver, and found that .312" bullets worked well in it ..... I was thinking the bore diameter was supposed to be the same......

[zeke]

Have started loading for the 7.62x25 Tokarov (new Zastava). Am using Hdy 86 rnsp/ Hdy 90 xtp and H 110 with either Fed 100 or 200 primers. Bout .2 or .3 grains more powder for the Fed 100 primers. Need to get the pressure up for good accuracy.

AA7 also worked well, but at lower velocity.

Started with once fired win brass, which is reported to be loaded by Sellier and Beloit. Didn't need to swage the primer pockets, but they were a little tight.

The hdy manual has the loads for the 90 grain xtp, but found the 86 rnsp is very accurate, and has a cannelure. Getting about 1400 fps from the Zastava.

New Starline brass is formed for .308 bullets, and are even quite tight for em.
Probably better/cheaper to just buy the SB rounds, which can be as low as $20/50.

[jimbob86]

Zeke, my Hornady manual is a bit old (Fifth Ed.) and lists the 90gr XTP as a .308" diameter .....

I was under the impression that all the commie guns share a common bore diammeter ..... then again, Zastava is making guns mostly for export here ..... the gun I'm looking at is Romanian, IIRC ......

As I said, one of the draws for me with this gun would be that I already stock the .312" Hornady XTP's .....

[Unclenick]

I have an old French MAB pistol I got surplus decades ago for about $50. It is nominally .32 ACP, which is loaded with 0.311 bullets. But slugging the bore showed it to be .309". In a pistol in that size operating in that pressure range, sizing the bullet down a few thousandths in the barrel doesn't hurt it. But slug your bore and see what it actually measures, and for accuracy, that should govern your bullet choice and minimize peak pressure.

[Mike Irwin]

"It is nominally .32 ACP, which is loaded with 0.311 bullets."

Except that the .32 Long Automatic was based on the .30 Pedersen, which used .309 diameter bullet that was slightly heavier than the bullet that the French used for their handgun/subgun round.

As far as I know, bullet weight was the only specification that the French changed -- nothing else.

[jimbob86]

So, what's the correct diameter bullet for these?

I'm guessing .309" bullets are rare as bleeding steak ..... never seen them.

[Mike Irwin]

Cartridges of the World says that the proper bullet diameter for the 7.62 Tokarev is .307.

[Unclenick]

Mike,

The bullet diameters are interesting. I just looked at the CIP site and it puts the 7.65 mm Browning bullet maximum diameter at 7.85 mm or .3091". The drawing title claims the alternative name for the cartridge is .32 Automatic. Then the CIP shows the 7.65 Long bullet at 7.88 mm, or 0.3102" . SAAMI lists the .32 Automatic bullet as 0.3125" - 0.006", which is twice the usual tolerance span for a bullet, so the minimum is 0.3065", which is the U.S. military minimum for a .308 diameter bullet. It's sort of like the U.S. spec is trying to make everybody happy, but the CIP spec is not. I note the CIP spec disagrees slightly on other details, like exact case length, yet all these cartridges are considered cross-compatible, giving a good example of how much wiggle room is built into some chamberings.

[zeke]

JimBob-The new hornady 90 xtp's are listed at .309. When reading posts from others who load for the Tok, or CZ, most were using .308 or .309 bullets for the Tokarovs or CZ-52's.

Get higher velocities for same powder charge when using the 90 grain xtp, and it contacts the chamber slightly when loading (not from COL).

Both Hornady bullets are easily obtainable, at the moment.
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby...ensionid=20498

So far have only loaded about 1000 rds of 7.62x25, and only with the Hdy bullets.

Using soft lead forced through bore may tell the exact tale.

[jimbob86]

So.... the Nagant bullets and the Tokarev bullets are going to be different diameters .....

.... so much for the ComBloc interchangability theory.....

[Mike Irwin]

"So.... the Nagant bullets and the Tokarev bullets are going to be different diameters .....

.... so much for the ComBloc interchangability theory..... "

What interchangeability theory?

The Nagant and Tokarev cartridges had very different development tracks. The Nagant was developed in Belgium and the Tokarev was developed in the Soviet Union and based heavily on the 7.63 Mauser.

The bullets were also different weights.

[jimbob86]

I had it explained to me that the Soviets wanted one common bore diameter, so tooling could be simplified, and barrels could be made for different guns on one machine .....