Carry Gun Triggers & Accuracy

dreaming · January 15, 2018, 08:12 PM

I am thinking of getting a small, perhaps a micro, pistol for edc I already have a 9 mm Sig P229 compact size gun that is a nail driver. It is a bit large to conceal in many Southern California situations and I may replace it with the slightly smaller Sig P39 9 mm, but that is another story since regardless I want a micro size EDC to augment either the P229 or the P239.

I am very interested in the just announced but yet to be available Sig P365 as it is something similar to a G43 but done (hopefully) per Sig standards and quality. One concern of mine is it, like the G43, has a striker action but no external safety. If I wanted Glock leg I would buy a Glock. Alternatively I am thinking about the Sig P230RS, which is a tiny little thing striker gun also with no external safety but a 9 pound DA like trigger. The Sig P 365 supposedly has more like a 5+ pound trigger similar to a G43's 5.5 lb trigger.

My question for comments is given this is for defense purposes, in which case if ever actually needed I will likely be stoked on adrenalin, do you think a half decent shooter ( and I think I am decent but no operator) may be better off with the long heavier DA trigger (think NYPD Glock) or the more easily shot with accuracy lighter trigger? Thanks.

TunnelRat · January 15, 2018, 08:57 PM

Quote:

If I wanted Glock leg I would buy a Glock.

Yes because we should all judge an entire design based on those that use it negligently.

PeteH · January 15, 2018, 09:07 PM

I personally don't think there is a happy medium.
You either go DA with one in the pipe and decocked or striker ready to go.
I like the comfort of option one but am just as happy with option two.
Get the right holster and plenty of practice.

James K · January 15, 2018, 09:20 PM

Some folks seem to want target triggers for defense guns. I will point out that I have never shot at anyone, though I was a LEO for some years. The advice I received from folks who should know is to chose a heavy trigger over a light one. When in a tight situation, you do not want shots going off accidentally. YOU may feel that YOU can handle a 2 pound trigger pull safely in a tight corner, but that is what you think on a range or sitting at a desk, not in the middle of a gun fight.

Generally, the law does not look too closely at the gun used in self defense, but one area the police do look at is the trigger pull weight and any tampering with the gun to make the pull lighter. (FYI, I just checked the pull on the 1911A1 I carried for a while and it is 7 pounds, something I never considered too heavy.

Jim

TunnelRat · January 15, 2018, 09:27 PM

Quote:

YOU may feel that YOU can handle a 2 pound trigger pull safely in a tight corner, but that is what you think on a range or sitting at a desk, not in the middle of a gun fight.

Right, but we're talking a stock unmodified trigger of 5.5 lb vs. a stock unmodified trigger of 9 lb., not quite the same.

rodfac · January 16, 2018, 08:25 AM

Quote:

better off with the long heavier DA trigger (think NYPD Glock) or the more easily shot with accuracy lighter trigger?

Yep...in spades. The stock trigger on any Sig DA/SA that I've handled is fine for concealed carry purposes. It's been my impression that Sigs are remarkably consistent in trigger pull, at least in the dozen or so that I've shot.But here's Sigs advert from their web site:

Quote:

The P365 is striker-fired, with the clean crisp trigger pull you expect from a SIG.

It's striker fired, but based on their previous offerings, I'd expect they'll put a good/excellent trigger in this new mode for them.

YMMV, Rod

cw308 · January 16, 2018, 12:10 PM

Just like a hunting rifle ,you would want a benchrest trigger . When you have that 8 point buck in your sights you don't even think of your trigger . Just think of a situation with a concealed carry handgun and it's not in the middle of the woods . An accidental discharge is one thing you don't want .

625TC · January 16, 2018, 12:29 PM

In truth both guns the Glock or Sig would sever well. As to " Glock leg" don't blame the machine for the mistakes of the operator. I personally fall on the Glock side . I have carried various Glock models since the late 1980s and have never had an unintentional discharge or any other incident. Safe gun handling can not be replaced with modifications to the gun. The trigger pull weight in a way becomes irrelevant if you keep your finger off the trigger til time to shoot. I am not trying to come off as a smart a... but rather just point out that there is no substitute for safe gun handling and continued training.

RickB · January 16, 2018, 12:30 PM

I think that hitting anything with a handgun is a difficult-enough task, and I don't want a "safe" trigger preventing me from utilizing a handgun to my best abilities.
I'm a single action guy, accustomed to 3.25# - 3.75# triggers, and I prefer that on all of my guns.

In self-defense situations, there are a lot of things that you can do, prior to pulling the trigger, that I separate from the actual shooting task.
When it's time to shoot, if situational awareness, evasion, whatever, hasn't worked, then I don't want a crappy trigger between me and my ability to save my life, and/or the lives of loved ones.

Wrestling with a 9# trigger on a gun that weighs a pound, would not be something I'd choose.

dahermit · January 16, 2018, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Some folks seem to want target triggers for defense guns. I will point out that I have never shot at anyone, though I was a LEO for some years. The advice I received from folks who should know is to chose a heavy trigger over a light one. When in a tight situation, you do not want shots going off accidentally. YOU may feel that YOU can handle a 2 pound trigger pull safely in a tight corner, but that is what you think on a range or sitting at a desk, not in the middle of a gun fight.

I am not too sure I want to go by a law inforcement person's perspective when it comes to an appropriately heavy trigger for service use considering that they have a very poor ratio of shots fired to actually hitting the perpetrator. That makes me consider that heavy service gun triggers just may be a factor in their poor shooting results. I practice with very light triggers and just hope that my unusual high round count (72 rounds 7 days a week...about 12,960 rounds, from May through October) for practice will result in muscle memory in the eventuality of having to discharge my gun in a defensive situation.

TunnelRat · January 16, 2018, 12:56 PM

I fall on both sides I guess. I have had a negligent discharge. It happened with a S&W 5903. That's a pistol that has a manual safety, a DA trigger pull, and a magazine disconnect. So how with all those devices did I have an ND? I assumed the pistol was unloaded when it wasn't. Now no one was hurt because I maintained the other safety rules, but it was a harsh experience. From that and other experience I feel that either a stock Glock or a stock DA/SA or safety equipped pistol is essentially equally safe. If a pistol is so safe that it could actually prevent you from operating it, i.e. a DA pull you can't master or a safety you forget to use, then that pistol will be of limited use in an actual self defense encounter. There is no system I know of that can stop a user from pressing a trigger once the user has made the decision to do so.

So do I then want a "light" trigger press? After years of shooting DA/SA pistols frankly a 5.5 lb. Glock trigger or similar does not feel heavy to me, nor do I find it hinders my ability to make hits. I've used a stock Glock trigger to make hits at 100 yds on IPSC plates. The trigger wasn't the limiting factor. I've also done a full day of force on force with UTM pistols. Now at the time I had been predominantly shooting Glocks. The only UTM pistols available to me were DA/SA P226s so that's what I had to use. During the entire day I never at one point felt, "Man this DA trigger pull is heavy." I have no memory of ever recognizing the weight of the trigger pull. I was lucky if I even got a sight picture or two hands on the pistol (most of it turned into one handed reflexive shooting, techniques that are very important).

Generally I keep triggers stock. I haven't really found a stock trigger that stopped me from being accurate and my experience indicates that the relatively minute differences people focus on don't materialize in actual use. For the OP I think any of the pistols mentioned can fill the role mentioned just fine.

Quote:

I am not too sure I want to go by a law inforcement person's perspective when it comes to an appropriately heavy trigger for service use considering that they have a very poor ratio of shots fired to actually hitting the perpetrator.

In my limited force on force experience, accuracy is no where near as easy to achieve as on a timer or during a drill. I feel confident in saying that I am above the average shot, though I am no Miculek. I have passed police qual courses with ease and am generally on the heels of the SWAT and other response team guys in the courses I do. In one force on force scenario I and the assailant fired on each other in close quarters with a number of rounds discharged. We both missed each other. I would never, ever miss that shot otherwise. But even in the faux situation adrenaline was enough to mess me up. While I will say that in my experience the average firearms enthusiast is on par or better than the average police officer when it comes to shooting, it's hard to gauge how well you will shoot on even a fake two way range.

BigJimP · January 16, 2018, 01:05 PM

If you shoot one gun all the time ...you can get used to most any trigger...to some extent. But to me, a real heavy trigger or a real "sloppy trigger" with a lot of creep or slack in it ...drives me crazy ...vs what I prefer.

I don't think you're better off with a 9 or 10 lb trigger...but if you like the DA/SA trigger you have on the Sig 229, then having the same trigger mechanism on your carry gun makes the most sense to me. I don't know if you can transition easily to the Striker trigger in that new Sig or not.

I think your biggest challenge, even if you end up liking the stryker fired gun, is the size ( grip, etc), weight and sight plane causing you issues / so transitioning between a 229 -- to a 239 ---and then this new Sig ...might be a challenge / or at least it would be for me.

As you know, I'm a 1911 guy - and my primary range gun, my tactical training gun and my primary carry gun is a Wilson Combat full sized, 5", all stainless, 1911 in 9mm...( I shoot other guns at the range -- Sig 226's, Sig X-Five, 4" 1911's, some S&W Revolvers...for fun mostly )....but when I train tactically / I go back to the same Wilson Combat 1911 in 9mm ...with a very good 3.5 - 4.5 lb trigger../ mine is right at 4 lbs ( no creep, no slack, breaks like glass )...

At real close ranges ( out to 18 Feet or so )...transitioning, for me, to a 1911 in an alloy frame and say a 4" barrel ( a gun that feels way different than my 5" steel gun ) is easy to transition to ...but at 7 - 10 yds my accuracy drops off a little in rapid fire ...( its the same if I were to carry a Sig 239 ...again because of the weight, sight plane and DA/SA trigger ---- and to get over that, I would have to train with it).

If I were you, I would wait until a range near you has one of the new Sigs to rent...before you buy ( In Case you didn't know, Sig is no longer making the 239 model although right now there are a lot of them around ...they won't be around forever on the new market ).

Danoobie · January 16, 2018, 01:49 PM

IME, it's how you do, when you squeeze the trigger,
which one's accurate for you, you need to figure.
So bring all guns you want to try on down to the range,
avoiding all the triggers which should feel a little strange.

Fishbed77 · January 17, 2018, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Yes because we should all judge an entire design based on those that use it negligently

Agreed. Just as we should blame Ford Mustangs for all the crashes leaving Cars and Coffee.

JDBerg · January 17, 2018, 04:14 PM

IMHO, you don’t need a light trigger pull on a carry gun, just as long as it’s a smooth trigger pull.

HighValleyRanch · January 17, 2018, 04:36 PM

LOL, you're in southern california. Where are you going to find a new Sig 365??
Dream on.

pblanc · January 17, 2018, 04:47 PM

The S&W M&P Shield is a subcompact, striker-fired pistol available with an external manual safety that is quite popular. Mine is not the 2.0 version and the trigger pull is on the heavier side for striker-fired pistols, but overall the gun is pretty shootable.

Cheapshooter · January 17, 2018, 04:57 PM

In a self defense situation you are going to pull the trigger, and the gun is going to go bang. You will never notice, or remember what the trigger pull felt like.
Way too much concern over those "perfect" triggers on SD guns. It's not carefully aimed, precision shooting.

Dufus · January 17, 2018, 05:00 PM

I have had accidental doubles with my target 1911 in a controlled shoot.

I have never had any unintentional discharges with a striker fired pistol with a decently heavy trigger.

If I got in a gun fight with the target 1911, not telling what would get hit.

hdwhit · January 17, 2018, 05:21 PM

Quote:

dreaming asked:
My question for comments is given this is for defense purposes, in which case if ever actually needed I will likely be stoked on adrenalin, do you think a half decent shooter may be better off with the long heavier DA trigger or the more easily shot with accuracy lighter trigger?

It doesn't matter.

Get the gun that fits your hand and is the right size to readily conceal irrespective of the maker and then train with it regularly and exclusively.

You are correct that in a self-defense situation you are going to be distracted, frightened and your fight-or-flight response will be fully engaged. Your higher cognitive functions will be focused into what amounts to tunnel vision and your ability to comprehend new circumstances will be diminished. Your training and prior experience can still be followed, so whatever gun you have trained with most often and with which you are most experienced will be the gun you perform best with.

jimbob86 · January 17, 2018, 05:37 PM

One gun. All the time, every time. Trigger pull should not be something one thinks about: it just is, because you've drilled it 10 thousand times before: Front Sight, Press. Repeat as Necessary.

If you keep rotating guns like you dress of different occasions and you create variables and uncertainty......dividing precious training time and ammo. Pick one and stick with it...... even it's tiny and not the latest and greatest: A well struck small blow in time beats a high powered miss a second too late, especially if one can repeat it several times in a second or two .....

cw308 · January 17, 2018, 07:12 PM

In benchrest shooting , my rifle has a 10 ounces trigger , once you get use to shooting a 10 oz it's not so light just normal.

TunnelRat · January 17, 2018, 07:45 PM

Quote:

In benchrest shooting , my rifle has a 10 ounces trigger , once you get use to shooting a 10 oz it's not so light just normal.

That may be, but there is no stock handgun trigger I know of that comes in at 10 oz. I'm not even aware of an aftermarket company that advertises going that low on a handgun, nor if that's well achievable while still having springs that would reliably function the pistol. You'd have to modify the heck out of the pistol and at that point I do think it would potentially be noticeable to an investigator. Will it matter in court? Maybe, maybe not. But why take that chance when at typical self defense ranges a stock trigger is certainly adequate? You're not talking taking a shot into the wind at hundreds of yards.

dreaming · January 17, 2018, 08:15 PM

All good thoughts. I doubt if anyone in California will have an opportunity to hold, much less shoot, a P365 for at least a year and then it will be difficult for cops. If you don't know our state government in its wisdom doesn't let us harm ourselves with unsafe handguns, which means we can't have the latest and safest designs. Still I may get an opportunity to check a p365 out on a trip out of state.

cw308 · January 17, 2018, 11:32 PM

TunnelRat

I was talking benchrest 308 Cal. It's a Jewell trigger , and a benchrest rifle only. Not a handgun.

January 15, 2018, 08:12 PM	#1
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	Carry Gun Triggers & Accuracy I am thinking of getting a small, perhaps a micro, pistol for edc I already have a 9 mm Sig P229 compact size gun that is a nail driver. It is a bit large to conceal in many Southern California situations and I may replace it with the slightly smaller Sig P39 9 mm, but that is another story since regardless I want a micro size EDC to augment either the P229 or the P239. I am very interested in the just announced but yet to be available Sig P365 as it is something similar to a G43 but done (hopefully) per Sig standards and quality. One concern of mine is it, like the G43, has a striker action but no external safety. If I wanted Glock leg I would buy a Glock. Alternatively I am thinking about the Sig P230RS, which is a tiny little thing striker gun also with no external safety but a 9 pound DA like trigger. The Sig P 365 supposedly has more like a 5+ pound trigger similar to a G43's 5.5 lb trigger. My question for comments is given this is for defense purposes, in which case if ever actually needed I will likely be stoked on adrenalin, do you think a half decent shooter ( and I think I am decent but no operator) may be better off with the long heavier DA trigger (think NYPD Glock) or the more easily shot with accuracy lighter trigger? Thanks.

January 16, 2018, 12:30 PM	#9
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I think that hitting anything with a handgun is a difficult-enough task, and I don't want a "safe" trigger preventing me from utilizing a handgun to my best abilities. I'm a single action guy, accustomed to 3.25# - 3.75# triggers, and I prefer that on all of my guns. In self-defense situations, there are a lot of things that you can do, prior to pulling the trigger, that I separate from the actual shooting task. When it's time to shoot, if situational awareness, evasion, whatever, hasn't worked, then I don't want a crappy trigger between me and my ability to save my life, and/or the lives of loved ones. Wrestling with a 9# trigger on a gun that weighs a pound, would not be something I'd choose. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

January 17, 2018, 04:14 PM	#15
JDBerg Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2015 Location: PA Posts: 1,835	IMHO, you don’t need a light trigger pull on a carry gun, just as long as it’s a smooth trigger pull. __________________ Words to Live By: Before You Pray - Believe; Before You Speak - Listen; Before You Spend - Earn; Before You Write - Think; Before You Quit - Try; Before You Die - Live

January 17, 2018, 04:36 PM	#16
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	LOL, you're in southern california. Where are you going to find a new Sig 365?? Dream on. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

January 17, 2018, 04:57 PM	#18
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	In a self defense situation you are going to pull the trigger, and the gun is going to go bang. You will never notice, or remember what the trigger pull felt like. Way too much concern over those "perfect" triggers on SD guns. It's not carefully aimed, precision shooting. __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

January 15, 2018, 09:07 PM	#3
PeteH Member Join Date: December 8, 2017 Posts: 24	I personally don't think there is a happy medium. You either go DA with one in the pipe and decocked or striker ready to go. I like the comfort of option one but am just as happy with option two. Get the right holster and plenty of practice.

January 15, 2018, 09:20 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Some folks seem to want target triggers for defense guns. I will point out that I have never shot at anyone, though I was a LEO for some years. The advice I received from folks who should know is to chose a heavy trigger over a light one. When in a tight situation, you do not want shots going off accidentally. YOU may feel that YOU can handle a 2 pound trigger pull safely in a tight corner, but that is what you think on a range or sitting at a desk, not in the middle of a gun fight. Generally, the law does not look too closely at the gun used in self defense, but one area the police do look at is the trigger pull weight and any tampering with the gun to make the pull lighter. (FYI, I just checked the pull on the 1911A1 I carried for a while and it is 7 pounds, something I never considered too heavy. Jim

January 16, 2018, 12:10 PM	#7
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Just like a hunting rifle ,you would want a benchrest trigger . When you have that 8 point buck in your sights you don't even think of your trigger . Just think of a situation with a concealed carry handgun and it's not in the middle of the woods . An accidental discharge is one thing you don't want .

January 16, 2018, 12:29 PM	#8
625TC Member Join Date: January 15, 2018 Posts: 67	In truth both guns the Glock or Sig would sever well. As to " Glock leg" don't blame the machine for the mistakes of the operator. I personally fall on the Glock side . I have carried various Glock models since the late 1980s and have never had an unintentional discharge or any other incident. Safe gun handling can not be replaced with modifications to the gun. The trigger pull weight in a way becomes irrelevant if you keep your finger off the trigger til time to shoot. I am not trying to come off as a smart a... but rather just point out that there is no substitute for safe gun handling and continued training.

January 16, 2018, 01:05 PM	#12
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	If you shoot one gun all the time ...you can get used to most any trigger...to some extent. But to me, a real heavy trigger or a real "sloppy trigger" with a lot of creep or slack in it ...drives me crazy ...vs what I prefer. I don't think you're better off with a 9 or 10 lb trigger...but if you like the DA/SA trigger you have on the Sig 229, then having the same trigger mechanism on your carry gun makes the most sense to me. I don't know if you can transition easily to the Striker trigger in that new Sig or not. I think your biggest challenge, even if you end up liking the stryker fired gun, is the size ( grip, etc), weight and sight plane causing you issues / so transitioning between a 229 -- to a 239 ---and then this new Sig ...might be a challenge / or at least it would be for me. As you know, I'm a 1911 guy - and my primary range gun, my tactical training gun and my primary carry gun is a Wilson Combat full sized, 5", all stainless, 1911 in 9mm...( I shoot other guns at the range -- Sig 226's, Sig X-Five, 4" 1911's, some S&W Revolvers...for fun mostly )....but when I train tactically / I go back to the same Wilson Combat 1911 in 9mm ...with a very good 3.5 - 4.5 lb trigger../ mine is right at 4 lbs ( no creep, no slack, breaks like glass )... At real close ranges ( out to 18 Feet or so )...transitioning, for me, to a 1911 in an alloy frame and say a 4" barrel ( a gun that feels way different than my 5" steel gun ) is easy to transition to ...but at 7 - 10 yds my accuracy drops off a little in rapid fire ...( its the same if I were to carry a Sig 239 ...again because of the weight, sight plane and DA/SA trigger ---- and to get over that, I would have to train with it). If I were you, I would wait until a range near you has one of the new Sigs to rent...before you buy ( In Case you didn't know, Sig is no longer making the 239 model although right now there are a lot of them around ...they won't be around forever on the new market ).

January 16, 2018, 01:49 PM	#13
Danoobie Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2017 Posts: 351	IME, it's how you do, when you squeeze the trigger, which one's accurate for you, you need to figure. So bring all guns you want to try on down to the range, avoiding all the triggers which should feel a little strange.

January 17, 2018, 04:47 PM	#17
pblanc Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 697	The S&W M&P Shield is a subcompact, striker-fired pistol available with an external manual safety that is quite popular. Mine is not the 2.0 version and the trigger pull is on the heavier side for striker-fired pistols, but overall the gun is pretty shootable.

January 17, 2018, 05:00 PM	#19
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	I have had accidental doubles with my target 1911 in a controlled shoot. I have never had any unintentional discharges with a striker fired pistol with a decently heavy trigger. If I got in a gun fight with the target 1911, not telling what would get hit.

January 17, 2018, 05:37 PM	#21
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	One gun. All the time, every time. Trigger pull should not be something one thinks about: it just is, because you've drilled it 10 thousand times before: Front Sight, Press. Repeat as Necessary. If you keep rotating guns like you dress of different occasions and you create variables and uncertainty......dividing precious training time and ammo. Pick one and stick with it...... even it's tiny and not the latest and greatest: A well struck small blow in time beats a high powered miss a second too late, especially if one can repeat it several times in a second or two .....

January 17, 2018, 07:12 PM	#22
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	In benchrest shooting , my rifle has a 10 ounces trigger , once you get use to shooting a 10 oz it's not so light just normal.

January 17, 2018, 08:15 PM	#24
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	All good thoughts. I doubt if anyone in California will have an opportunity to hold, much less shoot, a P365 for at least a year and then it will be difficult for cops. If you don't know our state government in its wisdom doesn't let us harm ourselves with unsafe handguns, which means we can't have the latest and safest designs. Still I may get an opportunity to check a p365 out on a trip out of state.

January 17, 2018, 11:32 PM	#25
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	TunnelRat I was talking benchrest 308 Cal. It's a Jewell trigger , and a benchrest rifle only. Not a handgun.