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Old May 5, 2012, 08:59 AM   #26
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Remember we are talking about head shots here so there is no way the brain will not be damaged.
And your were doing so well.

Utter nonsense. I have no time to write a 50 paragraph post on why this is ridiculous, but many many folks have been sot in the noodle without brain damage. Head damage, sure, but the brain was left intact. In addition, many folks have been shot in the head and suffered brain trauma but lived, and in many cases did not even loose conciousness. Our recent wars in Iraq, and Afghanistan leave us with documented instances of human beings suffering head injuries from flying debris, shrapnel, bullets etc. and staying in the fight. Do not be foolish enough to assume some criminal will not stay in the fight as well. He may also be wired for sound on some central nervous system stimulant which could keep him going with massive damage.

A small point, but whoever posted about the Hypothalamus, that part controls the four F's. The four F's are Fight, Flight, Food and Sex.

I have no idea why they call it the four F's, as you can see, one of the instinctual functions does not even start with an F. One of those weird scince things.
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Old May 5, 2012, 09:32 AM   #27
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There was a hostage situation, I THINK, maybe in Alaska but I don't remember. A man had grabbed a little girl and was blocking traffic on a bridge and holding her over the edge threatening to drop her.
A police sniper ran something like a mile and a half through backed up traffic to get where he could make a shot.
He waited until the guy brought the girl back over the railing (which the guy was doing repeatedly) and shot him right at the bridge of his nose, specifically because he knew it would instantly cease all motor function.
That was Steve Rodriguez. The incident took place over the Rio Grande. He ended up in court over the shooting, as I recall, or some extensive dead-guy's family complaint-started internal investigation, as he killed the father of the child literally within seconds of setting up his rifle when came after running with it for a considerable distance because the road was choked with all the stopped traffic from the closed bridge. He set up, got his breathing under control, had the scope on the man holding the child out over the edge (which was a moved already repeated by the guy several times), and when the man brought the child back over the bridge , Rodrigquez made his shot. The child and man dropped in place and the child was basically unharmed. The suit or complaint stemmed, in part, from the child NOT being in mortal danger when he wasn't being held out over the gorge.

Remember we are talking about head shots here so there is no way the brain will not be damaged.
This is a perfect example of what I am talking about when I talk about folks who do not understand anatomy. Usually my comments are in regard to consider 2D anatomy and almost always frontal perspectives and Capt. Charlie touched on this briefly with ...
Not only is the brainstem a small target, it's also a 3 dimensional target. If the bad guy is looking directly at you, the preferred shot is through the center of the nose. However, if said BG turns his head to the right, the shot has to be placed to the left of the nose.
The problem with hitting the brain stem and severing it is that you have to aim at an external spot on the person, behind which will be the brain stem assuming the bullet is able to maintain the original intended trajectory and penetrates sufficiently to do the job. That is why shot placement is nothing without trajectory and penetration. Bullets hitting the head often do no go where anticipate due to bone deflection and to a lessor extent, soft tissue deflection.

Capt. Charlie's aimpoint of the nose works best when the nose and brain stem form two points of an imaginary line and that line being part of the trajectory taken by the bullet. A raised chin (and hence, nose) would alter the angle of the line between the nose and brain stem relative to a more normal level position. If the nose was using as the aimpoint with the head turned up, the round can based bisect the brain's halves and pass up and in front of the brain stem.

Depending on whose biometrics you use, the averag weight of the human head is 4-5kg which corresponds fairly with with water displacement information indication about 4500cc. That average human brain is about 1150 cc in size, though modern human variation will find smaller people with brains way down around 950 cc (and a corrspondingly smaller head) and up to 1600 cc and sometimes more (and a much larger head). So in this reguard, the brain itself is only about 1/4 of the volume of the entire head.

With that said and changing animal types, I posted in the hunting section on headshooting 2 hogs with a .45-70 at 30 yards, hitting just below and forward of the ear and in one case, the bullet did ZERO bone damage. Shot placement was outstanding. Penentration was outstanding and the round exited the opposite side of the neck. Trajectory apparently was a problem, possibly suffering from deflection. Not only can you shoot the head and not do brain damage, you can shoot a large caliber medium velocity projectile at the head and have it not even damage the bone around the brain.

Every year, there are a goodly number of folks who are shot in the head and who do not have brain injuries. Most of these folks will suffer facial shots. Some well actually have the brain case struck by the bullet but not penetrate. If you google, you can find several nasty descriptions of botched suicides where people do things like put the muzzle of the gun in their mouth, pull the trigger, and the bullet passes beneath the brain case, off center, and exits the back of the neck. Guns placed under the chin and the trigger pulled and the round travels up through the mouth, nose, and sometimes and eye and exits forward of the brain. The you have temple shot attempted suicide where basically the shooter blows off the lateral orbit of the eye and takes out one or both eyes, but fails to hit the brain. In short, there are a goodly number of ways for a person to be shot in the head and not have bran involvement.
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Old May 5, 2012, 11:54 PM   #28
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The above link can take you to site where you can look at representations of various parts of the brain, and rotate them in 360 degrees. Choose the "inner brain 3" image, it can give you a very good idea of how small the parts are that we are considering as the target.
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Old May 6, 2012, 07:56 AM   #29
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If this were the case i would prefer a taser to the back. A study I saw showed a BG with a button simulating a trigger for an explosive device. When shot in the back he could not press the button. if shot from the front he could see the projectice coming and press the button. That is why they need to finalize their production of their shotgun taser rounds.

Sorry not in the buisness of brains, I dont know how it works and doesnt work to a science.
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Old May 6, 2012, 08:57 AM   #30
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Pretty much everything in the head below the ears is not brain.
...and in some examples, pretty much everything above them doesn't count for much either.
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Old May 6, 2012, 12:10 PM   #31
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I deleted those funny neuroanatomy jokes that I heard in grad school about a 1000 years ago.

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Old May 9, 2012, 07:44 PM   #32
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Well, one thing is for sure, I am not going to lay my gun down, and surender, even if it's a loved one, under the perps gun, once you do that, you have nothing left to bargan with.
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Old May 10, 2012, 10:19 AM   #33
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Remember we are talking about head shots here so there is no way the brain will not be damaged.
I know this has been posted about 5 different times in this post, but certainly not the case. A new 'kid' in our platoon for whatever reason (won't speculate, it was considered 'accidental') took a round from under the chin straight through his brain and out the top, and lived. We had to have a representative be at the hospital, and my teamleader along with myself had the first shift. Though he was not responsive like a full capable human, he still had many drastic responses and movements. I bring this up because this in fact was a shot to the brain. There are many instances where a headshot is not to the brain. Theres the story of a Marine in one of the two current theatres, who took a round straight through his forehead and didn't even know he was hit until someone pointed out that he was bleeding both in the front and back. Apparently, it went right in between.

This is pure guessing on my part, but sometimes I think a shot looking for a response may be better. For example, if I am the BG and am squared up against someone with a gun pointed at me, I'm pretty sure if I was shot straight in the throat my 'flight' instinct would kick in and I would possibly drop my gun. I don't know anyone who doesn't like to breath. Theres two spots of the body that a kick or a punch *usually* causes a man to reach for. His 'goods' and his throat. I dont know if anyone has seen someone get punched in the throat or being put in an air choke, but it usually causes panic. IMO, a shot to the throat which is very visible, a decent size target, and an area amongst other vital parts such as the spinal cord or carotid artery *could* be very effective. Any opinions on this? Or better yet, any facts on this?

Just want to throw another tidbit out. We would always practice failure to stop drills on a silhouette target. There was a circle for the chest (10" I think?), the pelvic girdle, and the 'Tbox' which is the approximate location of the brain stem. The failure to stop was two center mass, and one to the tbox or pelvis. Most everyone would go for the pelvis, as guaranteeing a shot in the tbox was not an easy feat. I'm sure I am not the only one who has missed more than once while trying to be fast with the follow-up shot to the Tbox. This was with an M4 and an ACOG usually 50 yards or less on a static target. It sounds easy, but when you have to come to the ready, aim, do two shots center mass, reaquire site picture/sight alignment to a smaller part of the body, and try to do it in a very quick fashion, misses are not uncommon.
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Old May 13, 2012, 03:34 PM   #34
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True, maybe...

Remember we are talking about head shots here so there is no way the brain will not be damaged.
There are two assumptions made here, or perhaps just implied, but neither is a guaranteed certainty.

First is that a bullet to the head will enter the brain. While this usually happens, there is enough documented evidence that, due to many variables, it does not always happen.

Second, that the damage to the brain will be enough to achieve the desired effect, namely instant incapacitation. Again, no guarantee.

Several have mentioned the "off switch" (hypo-whatever...) and how, if a bullet gets there, the BG shuts down right now, usually DRT. No pull of a trigger possible. Ok, fine. Now, with the movement of the head, power of the round, shape of the bullet, angle of impact, ability of the shooter, construction of tissues, and some other factors I'm sure exist, how can you be certain that your bullet will get where you need it to go?

Bullets do funny things sometimes. 99 shots may go perfect, and shot 100 hits the right spot on the outside, and takes a left turn at Albquerque inside, before getting to that magic "off switch".

Police snipers, with their training and equipment still only take the shot as a last resort. And they have a legal department to back them up if it doesn't go perfectly. We don't.

With a handgun, all the negative possiblities are increased. Tough call, because if things don't go perfectly, then YOU are going to be blamed. And even if they do go perfectly, you can still be blamed.
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
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