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January 31, 2012, 09:56 AM | #76 |
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Let me repeat my first point for those who missed it: if you open carry and have no training in gun retention skills, especially if you carry in a regular, non-retention holster, you are in Condition White.
Having your head on a swivel does no good when it's simultaneously up your nether regions. pax |
January 31, 2012, 11:37 AM | #77 |
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I didn't need that image, Pax - yuk!
But it's a good point. I think some folks overestimate their situational awareness and how you can get crowded in real life.
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January 31, 2012, 12:56 PM | #78 |
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Lots of Serpa hate. Odd, I carried them for three tours without an issue. I did practice a lot though. I'd never even heard of people shooting themselves with them till now (although you do get the occasional ND). I think blaming the equipment is kind of like blaming a motorcycle for getting into crashes.
Wearing a gun openly is kind of like wearing lots of bling. Someone will see it eventually and want to snatch it. The results unfortunately are much more fatal.
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January 31, 2012, 01:07 PM | #79 | |
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January 31, 2012, 02:56 PM | #80 |
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It's easy to say that training trumps bad equipment design but that is a cliche that denies years of human factors work on errors. Bad design facilitates errors.
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January 31, 2012, 03:15 PM | #81 |
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Every possible comment has already been made except the most obvious.
Me thinks too many have gone ahead and secured a concealed carry license for all the wrong reasons. then have further compounded the problem by deciding to open carry. Gun control proponents are always looking for more support for their arguments and those who carry in public either openly or concealed are in the position to supply or deny fuel to those arguments. Law enforcement officers are required to carry, Private citizens are not. therefore you have moral requirement to be virtually perfect in your approach, training and commitment to guarantee your choice to carry won't be turned into a vote for gun control. Let me say in advance I'm sorry if this offends anyone, it's not my intention. |
February 8, 2012, 12:37 AM | #82 |
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Definitely a fear of mine about open carry.
It's very hard to have a constant state of vigilance on all quarters 100% of the time when open carrying and your age can make you a target if you are older and look physically an easy target to strong arm a gun away from you. A warning story to all of us to stay aware and alert to threats working their way towards us at all times. Concealed carry,open carry or unarmed too. |
February 8, 2012, 10:56 PM | #83 |
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Being armed can sometimes give one a false sense of security leading one to relax in a place they'd otherwise be alert.
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February 9, 2012, 12:24 PM | #84 |
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Irish, I don't follow your reasoning. What is the right reason?
Please explain your cryptic message. I am against open carry. That has been beat to death at least twice in this thread. I will say it; A back up gun may have afforded the victim some assistance, but considering that his Ooda loop was compromised when he was attacked there was likely nothing aside from outside intervention that could have saved him. I cannot tell you how many cops I have seen flash their gun around when in plain clothes. Feds seem to be the worse. With the exception of one faux paus 25 years ago, no one has ever made me carrying off duty.
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February 9, 2012, 01:46 PM | #85 |
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I tend to agree with Irish. It is my opinion that some just want to show that they have and can carry a gun.
Jerry
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February 9, 2012, 04:52 PM | #86 | ||
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February 9, 2012, 05:16 PM | #87 | |
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I too belive a lot of young folk do this to show off or say I am armed and a dangerous person. Until it is taken away and used against them. I would really worry about that if I opened carried in public. |
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February 9, 2012, 11:58 PM | #88 |
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I can see some, limited, value in open carry just as the exercise of a right. Rights are like muscles, in a way - they tend to atrophy if never exercised.
However, if it's done, it should be done in a discreet, non-threatening, and AWARE manner. For myself, I only open carry, if at all, in rural/woodland settings, where I'm not concerned about public perceptions but might be concerned about things surprising me. (Then again, if I lived in an area where OC was not only legal, but "normal," I might change my mind in hot weather.) Open carry allows a faster draw, and more comfortable clothing selection, especially where larger handguns are concerned. |
February 15, 2012, 01:38 AM | #89 |
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Having fast access to your weapon is important, but as crowded as this world is, it makes me nervous when people brush up against me in a line. I tend to favor a Blackhawk Serpa holster with the push-button retention. It is less likely someone can take my weapon from me. I also tend to drop an elbow on top of it when close to others. Some practice with a friend can help one learn some retention methods too. Just be sure you weapon is unloaded during practice. I have seen people practice these techniques with an Airsoft BB gun too. That way it is as real as can be and still be safe.
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February 15, 2012, 01:50 AM | #90 |
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and this accounts for like 0.01% of Open carriers, how many cops get their guns taken and how many open carriers get guns taken?
*note bad part of town *after dark *bad holster? Maybe tyler was too young to apply for a ccw permit, I know thats why the younger guys carry in states allow open carry, no permit 21 waitting around. We could change the topic to, "states need to lower CCW age to 18 so things like this wouldn't happen" Some people don't get permits also due to the fact "government data base" paranoide. A few more weeks I can apply for my permit and I know I will be done(for the most part) with open carrying, rarely I will do it. Last edited by 9mm; February 15, 2012 at 02:17 AM. |
February 15, 2012, 07:48 AM | #91 | |
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February 15, 2012, 11:31 AM | #92 |
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Sending a Message - But Which One?
I have always seen OC - the optional kind, not LEOs or others required to OC - as making a statement. Maybe it's standing up for 2A or trying to shock people, maybe it's a testosterone thing, maybe it's an old guy advising the world he still should be feared. It could be a lot of things, but if we're talking about optional OC - when concealed carry is also a legal option - I will always believe the OC'er is trying to send a message. To me, advertising that i carry a gun is antithetical to my reasons for carrying.
There are certain potential advantages to OC, but to me they are outweighed by the disadvantages. I only do it around the house or out in the woods - when i am virtually assured of being alone. Everywhere else, it's concealed, and i won't ever trade away that advantage. A gun coming out of nowhere, in the hands of someone previously perceived as a victim, or shots fired from a coat pocket - is EXACTLY what i want to accomplish if i ever have to use lethal force in self-defense. I hope i never do but if so, i want the element of surprise on my side, or if surprise is lost because my SA failed me, i want the potential ability to regain it that OC doesn't offer. Just like a karate master doesn't wear his blackbelt out into the world, my firearm will remain out of sight unless i truly and urgently need it. Growing up in an era where a fistfight settled even serious disagreements, now it seems inner-city style murder for nothing has invaded every quiet suburban area throughout the country. Today it seems reasonable to me for any law-abiding citizen to carry for self and family defense reasons, but i believe the need is even stronger for women and older citizens, who are logically and statistically more likely to be selected as victims. I still contend CC offers the greater advantages. It could even be argued that an otherwise attractive victim with an openly-carried pistol might be viewed by a thug as an easy source of a free gun. What we really need are more shall-issue states and national reciprocity. John Lott shows pretty clearly the link between shall-issue laws and a marked decrease in violent crime in More Guns, Less Crime. If criminals can't tell WHO might be carrying, they perceive greater personal risk in attacking anyone. But until violent crime drops to zero, or until all law-abiding citizens carry, I won't be advertising.
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February 16, 2012, 01:43 PM | #93 | |
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No thanks.
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February 17, 2012, 09:08 AM | #94 | |
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Thus, strapping on a gun without much, much practice (and does Oscar Open-Carry do that) is a tad risky. Fixed it for you. Some equipment can make the act of carrying more risky. However, you imply that the SERPA holster singlehandedly makes carrying a gun risky. Carry was risky before any particular holster design, it still is today, and it will still be a risky act long after certain holsters and other equipment have long faded from our memories. As long as you have a gun, there's a criminal or politician out there that wants it and will take it given the opportunity. It's the act of carrying that is risky, though certain practices and equipment choices may compound that risk in certain situations. There's an active thread on SERPA holsters in T&T.
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February 17, 2012, 11:15 AM | #95 |
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No, I was making a specific point that Serpas may have an affordance that leads to an ND. It is argued by some that this problem may be solved by practice with where to put your finger.That's a debate from the human factors literature. Practice doesn't solve everything but some gun folks suggest that.
It does go against other literature. Thus, OC in general has risks - an untrained person with a Serpa adds to that. If you want my opinion that folks who carry should be trained - of course. Should it be the law - that's another thread.
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February 17, 2012, 12:10 PM | #96 | |
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February 17, 2012, 01:08 PM | #97 | |
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February 17, 2012, 09:39 PM | #98 |
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On the rare occasions when I've open carried, I've been hunting or hiking. Guess I was making a statement to the wildlife... at the time I just thought I was going for comfort and convenience.
While I am sure many open carriers are "making a statement," I'm equally sure that several of those launching the verbal assault on open carriers and their motives are "projecting." |
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