March 27, 2007, 02:25 PM | #1 |
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.45 ACP reload problem
I had reloaded some 155 gr bear creek moly coated bullets for my wifes Ruger P345. I had used power pistol powder but had to use data for 185 gr bullets because I couldn't find any data for the 155's. Anyways the OAL was set to 1.275" as that what was specified for the 185 gr data in my manual so the round wasn't in the brass much, although I do use a Lee Factory crimp die. So we shot a couple rounds and next I heard the hammer drop but nothing happed for my wife so she racked the slide (thinking she had a misfire) and the new round wouldn't chamber. I took a look at the gun and somehow a bullet was lodged in the barrel of the gun enough to keep the next round from chambering and there was unburnt gunpowder all over the inside of the gun. I took a look at her brass on the ground and there was one with no primer strike.
It looks like to me that the bullet jammed in the barrel some how and when she racked the slide the extractor pulled the bullet out of the brass dumping the unburnt powder all over the gun iunternals and the bullet stuck in the barrel luckily prevented her from chambering another round. The interesting thing was that when I disassembled the gun to remove the bullet with a brass rod the bullet just fell out of the barrel. Does anyone have any ideas what could have caused the bullet to be stuck enough to allow the extractor to pull the brass from the bullet? I dont even see how the bullet could have gotten stuck in the barrel in the first place as the OAL was OK. |
March 27, 2007, 02:54 PM | #2 |
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1.275" too long??
OAL is probably too long--most guns won't function reliably unless OAL < ~1.265" In fact Wilson Combat recommends 1.250-1.260"
The only scenario I can picture is the crimp wasn't much and since the bullet was barely seated in the case, and since the rounds are probably too long, the force of the slide stuck one in the throat of the barrel and when she racked the slide the extractor pulled the case loose. All I can tell you really is that none of our 45s--a Wilson, a Kimber and a Glock 21 will reliably handle 1.275" OAL. In fact, most of the rounds won't even allow the slide to go into battery. I'd sure like to hear what some more experienced guys have to say about this. Last edited by benedict1; March 27, 2007 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Typing error. |
March 27, 2007, 03:21 PM | #3 |
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OAL is peculiar to the shape of the bullet. Never assume the OAL from one bullet has anything to do with another.
Since the .45 ACP headspaces on the mouth of the case, the shoulder of the bullet, the leading edge of the wide part that fills the grooves, should not stick out significantly beyond that case mouth. Most chambers are a little long and most cases are a little short, A cast bullet shoulder might stick out .020" or so beyond the casemouth, but usually not more, unless you are setting up to headspace off the bullet with a known long throat or chamber. 185 grain load data will be light for a 155. You may experience some failures to function and have to work that load up to function the gun reliably. That said, such a light bullet, at velocities that produce hardball muzzle energy, has low enough momentum that it is a good alternative to hollow points for preventing over-penetration in an apartment building or other high penetration-risk locations.
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March 27, 2007, 03:39 PM | #4 |
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I'm not "one of the more experienced guys" but...
Super short bullet coupled with super long c.o.l. does not sound like a good combo. The bullet could not have had much case tension to keep it in there. I would guess that a functional c.o.l. for that small of a bullet would be closer to the 1.200" range, but like Nick said, depends on the shape. Giving the case mouth a chance to seat without the bullet engaging the rifling. |
March 29, 2007, 01:42 PM | #5 |
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I think 1.275 is the general MAXIMUM overall length for the .45acp. I think you should try shortening it just a tad.
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March 29, 2007, 02:08 PM | #6 |
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When I made these rounds I knew 1.275 was at the max allowable for the 45 acp but the load data in my reloading manual had it listed at 8.4 gr of power pistol with a OAL of 1.275 for the starting and max load for a 185 grain bullet, which was the closest to what I am trying to load. My rounds are 155 grain LSWC (just for plinking/practice as my wife has started to develop a flinch).
I know this is a "light" load for 155's using powder meant for 185's but I always have shot 200's at 230 grain powder levels and it reliably functioned the gun. The functioning isn't the problem (at least not yet) just the feeding/firing the round. I did measure the bullet diameter after all this happened and it fell out of the barrel and it was .450 below where the bullet was inserted in the brass an .452 above where the bullet was seated in the brass. That tells me that there was a decent crimp on the lead bullet. I would like to try to shorten the OAL but I don't know how much is safe, even for this "light" load because I don't have any load data saying what OAL is acceptable, and I don't have a crony (yet) so I can't expieriment with it. I'm going to check a reloading buddies manuals to see if they have anything else to say. Does anyone have any data saying what I can make this OAL if I'm using 155 grain bullets and 8.4 grains of Power Pistol. I may have found I need to pull them all apart and try again. |
March 29, 2007, 02:26 PM | #7 |
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I've run Hornady XTP 200gr bullets down to about 1.215" OAL safely and reliably with Titegroup. Lighter bullets (i.e. anything not 230gr standard loads) I tend to seat well below 1.250" OAL.
I've never even tried a 155gr bullet, but if I had successful load data for a 185gr bullet of similar profile then I would definitely shorten my OAL from that first load. I would start with the same powder charge (since heavier bullets use lighter powder charges) and shorten my OAL by half of the difference in bullet length. If my 185gr bullet was 0.575 long and my 155gr bullet was 0.525 long, I would make by OAL shrink by 0.025 to begin with, and adjust from there. But you have to give the case something to grip on. |
March 29, 2007, 02:50 PM | #8 |
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OK, going off of that idea, can someone measure a 185 grain LSWC and tell me the actual OAL of just the lead bullet itself so I can see how much longer it is than my 155 grain projectile. I then can try inserting the bullets in the brass further by half the difference in the bullet length of the 185 grain and 155 grain bullets.
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March 29, 2007, 03:05 PM | #9 |
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I've ran light bullets all the way down to 1.190 and was fine. If you're going to extrapolate data from a book for a load thats not in the book you should pay attention to everything and start with starting loads. They're bullet being heavier, will obviously seat to a longer OAL, seat a little deeper. If they still wont work, seat deeper and go back to a starting load. You should be ok with the 185 gr starting loads because lighter bullets need more powder than heavier ones.
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March 29, 2007, 05:25 PM | #10 |
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The .45 ACP is one of the easiest of all cartridges to load for. but like any other cartridge, when you try to push it to extremes you can easily run into problems. I've known folks to have all manner of problems loading 260-300 grainers for it.
Stick within the design envelope, i.e. 185-230 for the .45, 135-180 for the .40, 115 to 147 for the 9MM, and you'll have fewer problems. I guess that in my opinion, if I felt the need for a bullet as light as 150-155 grains, I'd buy a .40 S&W instead of trying to use the .45 well ourside it's normal parameters..
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March 29, 2007, 07:01 PM | #11 |
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The manuals and the gorenet discourage empiricism.
The correct way to load a .45 ACP semiwadcutter, which the Bear Creek 155 is illustrated as; is to seat it with about .020" to .030" of the shoulder showing above the case mouth. It should chamber freely (with the barrel clean and out of the gun.) In a 1911 barrel (don't know about Ruger) it should chamber with the casehead flush or slightly below the hood, actually headspacing with the shoulder against the origin of the rifling. If it doesn't, seat it down a little but in no case with the shoulder below the case mouth. Did I mention OAL? No. Take what you get by the above procedure and hope the mould designer gave you the right nose shape for it to feed. Seat deeper if absolutely necessary. The Lee book has loading data for 154, 155, and 160 grain .45s; which is a negligible difference. |
March 29, 2007, 07:06 PM | #12 |
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xjz: I think Edward429451 has the right idea... You are WAY too long. I've gone to 1.215 with 200gr, he's gone to 1.190 with 185gr. 1.275 ends up having the shoulder of the wadcutter way to far above the case mouth. Shrink it down until the shoulder just protrudes above the case mouth.
The rounds in the foreground of this image are LSWC rounds... look at how the bullet shoulder just barely protrudes from the case. Last edited by azredhawk44; March 29, 2007 at 07:14 PM. Reason: Jim Watson posted the same idea as I was typing... |
March 29, 2007, 08:07 PM | #13 |
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measure OAL of 185 gr LSWC
One of my previous loads were for a 185 gr LSWC and it functioned flawlessly in the Ruger. I loaded it with Unique though and was able to seat the bullet to where .030" of the shoulder was extending past the end of the brass. I think the 155's will work fine if I can seat them a little deeper (I'm only using 155 gr bullets because it's my wifes gun and she has developed a flinch due to the heavier recoil of the 200/230 gr loads she was shooting earlier).
Can someone measure a 185 gr LSWC bullet OAL (not COAL) for me so I can figure out how much deeper I can seat my 155 gr LSWC into the brass to get away from the 1.275" COAL? Thanks XJZ |
March 29, 2007, 08:13 PM | #14 |
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One of the keys to your problem is that the slide was not closed which is evidenced by no primer strike. If this happened in a clip string of ammo, it most likely dislodged the bullet as the slide was coming forward. Not enough neck tension on too short of bullet. The powder probably stopped the case from going fully into the chamber. I'd say your wife is one lucky lady, she still has her hands.
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March 30, 2007, 12:06 AM | #15 |
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I just asked my wife about it again and she said she had shot one full magazine prior to this happening with one failure to feed but the bullet remained in the brass. Then the next magazine she had shot the first 4 rounds, the 5th one was the round that became stuck in the barrel and the brass dumped its powder as she racked the slide, then proceeded to rack 3 more rounds thru the gun with them all failing to feed as the stuck bullet was slightly wedged in the barrel preventing the next round from chambering.
I also looked at my reloading manual and it says almost all 155 grain bullets/powder combination should be loaded to a COAL of 1.275 with a few as small as 1.230 but none smaller. I'm begining to think this load combination may just not be for her gun, unless I get some other powder that will allow the shorter 1.230 COAL, which would be cheaper than buying a chrony to try and use the power pistol I currently have. I think I may just try to shoot a few more of the rounds as is this weekend and see if it happens again. |
March 30, 2007, 07:56 AM | #16 |
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What reloading manual is telling you to load 155 grain .45 ACP to 1.275" OAL?
It is wrong. Refer to my previous post (and yours) and seat the dinky little things with .030" of shoulder showing and forget about the OAL. Then hope it feeds. Your wife would be as comfortable with the 185 or 200 grain bullet and the lightest powder charge that would function the action. If necessary you could get her a lighter recoil spring from Wolff. I had a lady with no experience who worked her way from .22 to .38 to 9mm to .45. She much preferred the great big holes the .45 punched in the target. I had, of course, cheated. They were 200 gr SWCs at maybe 650 fps and were very soft to shoot in the heavy Pachmayr/Colt. |
March 30, 2007, 09:13 AM | #17 |
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I have had very good luck loading .45 with 200 gr SWC and 3.9 to 4.1 Clays for a light load. Lots of folks have that same experience. I have dealt with my anticipation of recoil push which some refer to as a flinch and I refer to as early follow through by shooting .22 right along with the .45. I have a CZ75BD with the Kadet Kit. I load two mags of .22 and shoot them along with 5 or 6 mags of .45 or 9mm. Getting the muscle memory of the .22 transferred to the .45 helps me with that anticipation thing.
I agree with the others who say look at the shoulder and forget the OAL. I learned it from them. It works. |
March 30, 2007, 10:39 AM | #18 |
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Jim, watch what your saying, because somebody new to the game could take what you said to forget what your reloading manual says about COAL and load to the .030 of the shoulder showing on a LSWC and that could destroy a gun if you don't reduce the ammount of powder you put in the cartrige. No offence meant by that, just wanted to clarify. And yes I have had good results in the past with 185 gr LSWC and seating the bullet as we are describing when the manual said to seat it to where about .020 of the brass was sticking out above the shoulder of the bullet.
My relaoding manual is LEE's and I love it because it has a lot more lead projectile reloading data then most other manuals I have seen that friends use. The majority of the loads specified in it are directly from the powder manufacturers data anyways. As a general rule I reload for the cost savings so i can shoot more for the same expense, and so I can make accurate/lighter loads than factory offerings. I almost always reload a lighter projectile using data for a heavier projectile as it uses less powder, has less recoil, and is often more accurate, and these loads have always functioned my guns just fine. |
March 30, 2007, 02:24 PM | #19 | |
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Quote:
Typo, I do that sometimes. |
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March 30, 2007, 11:32 PM | #20 |
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That wasn't actually a typo.
On the first 185 gr LSWC I reloaded for the .45, the reloading manual specified the cartrige minimum OAL at a length where the bullet shoulder would have been seated .020 below the edge of the brass. It actuall fed fine that way too. I decided after the first batch I made to lengthen it some though, and made the rest of them so the shoulder of the bullet shoulder extended .020 out of the brass. We fired the remainder of those 155's today and every other one would fail to feed in the gun properly, but I didnt have any of them unseat the bullet from the brass like it did the first time. I didn't change the OAL either, left them at 1.275" and they all shot fine once I was able to get them in the chamber (sometimes one at a time by hand). |
March 31, 2007, 11:03 AM | #21 |
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Never heard of doing that before. I've seated flush (WC's) before but not below the case mouth. I never did have much luck with light bullets in 45acp and went back to 200-230 gr across the board.
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April 1, 2007, 09:12 PM | #22 |
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There have been several misstatements in this thread. One of these misstatements is potentially dangerous, so I am going to go to the trouble here of illustrating the point for clarification.
First, C.O.L. (beginners, see explanation of this term at the end) is provided by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (S.A.M.M.I.) as a maximum. That maximum has absolute value to one component of your gun and one alone: the magazine. Gun manufacturers subscribing to the S.A.M.M.I. in the U.S. or the International Proof Commision (C.I.P.) in Europe, agree to make the length of their magazines able to work with cartridges that stay within that maximum length limit. It is a number independent of what the most accurate or practical C.O.L. for any particular bullet might be. In the example below, you can see the .45 ACP hardbal cartridge loaded to the S.A.M.M.I. maximum C.O.L. of 1.275”, and you can see the sloping sides of the bullet shape will not interfere with the throat of the barrel outline adjacent to it. The Lyman bullet shown on the right side of it is another story. I own a Lyman mold for this bullet, and have found it satisfactory in a gun with reliability modifications to the feed ramp and chamber mouth. It may not, however, be loaded to the S.A.M.M.I. maximum C.O.L. of 1.275”. To do so not only exposes a lubricating groove to make a mess, but the shoulder has to be jammed into the throat of the rifling to chamber it. That means it will not feed well. If the gun tries to push it into the chamber, the bullet will likely get stuck and have to be pushed out from the muzzle. The correct seating length for this bullet is 1.100” as illustrated. How do you find the correct seating length for a bullet to be fed in the .45 ACP? A good approach is to remove the gun’s barrel use it as a bullet length gage. Below is an illustration of a 1911 barrel being used for the purpose. A cartridge with a correctly seated bullet should settle into the chamber without the case sticking up above the part that is flush with the sllide breechface in battery. The cartridge should not have to be forced into this position. If it sticks up, you need to seat the bullet deeper. A lead or cast bullet may be seated so the case is flush with the back of the barrel as shown, and the bullet touching the lands (assuming it’s nose shape does not then cause it to exceed the S.A.M.M.I. limit for the magazine). A cartridge loaded with a jacketed bullet should be 0.01” or more below flush to avoid pressure increases from touching the throat. In either case, you will need to work loads up to match your final cartridge dimensions, watching for pressure signs, as always. Once you find the correct seating depth, measure the C.O.L. of your finished cartridge and make a note of it for use with this bullet in your gun. Seating a bullet below flush with the case mouth is potentially hazardous. As a bullet seats deeper into a case, it takes away from the space the powder is burning in. This tighter confinement increases pressure. In the various short automatic pistol cartridges, this problem is especially acute. Unlike a bottleneck rifle cartridge, they have little powder space to start with, so you don’t have to seat the bullet very far to reduce the available space significantly. A change in seating depth that would raise pressure very little in a big rifle case, can easily raise it above safe limits in these small capacity pistol cartridge cases. The image below illustrates how a seating difference of just 1/10” can take pressures from very safe levels to above safe +P maximums. For beginners confused by C.O.A.L., C.O.L, O.A.L, and C.L., with or without the periods, they are all the same thing: cartridge length. A perusal of publication in the 70’s and 80’s will show the NRA’s using the term “Cartridge O.A.L.” Overall has been an established compound word since Chaucer’s time, so why it got split into two initials, O.A., by some, instead of just “O”, I don’t know? At any rate, C.L., the simplest and most logical usage, is not in favor. C.O.L. seems to me to come closest among the current lot to making sense by omitting the unnecessary initial “A.” You may, however, use any the first three forms at the start of this paragraph that you choose, without risk of being misunderstood.
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April 2, 2007, 05:42 PM | #23 |
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The Complete Reloading Manual for the .45 A.C.P.
On page 39, "155 GR. LSWC cast COL: 1.230".
I recently loaded 500 of 155 gr. Oregon Trail LSWC bullets; seated them to a length of 1.235 inch. Worked fine. Accurate bullet, too. Fun to shoot with a light load as there was almost no recoil. Good training round for a small person, male or female. John Mayberry, NC |
April 3, 2007, 10:18 AM | #24 |
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As per my last post, it matters which 155 grain bullet? There is no universal shape for any particular bullet weight, and shape determines seating depth, as the example in my post shows. The problems come from assuming data about one particular example will necessarily carry over to others. It won't necessarily do so, especially not in a small capacity case.
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April 3, 2007, 12:39 PM | #25 |
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Which is what the Lee book does, almost automatically leading you to compare apples and oranges.
Lee does not run a ballistics lab, their load data is from the powder companies. Lee tabulates all loads for the same caliber and bullet type and weight together, highest listed velocity first. But they might not come out in that order for you. The data reprinted by Lee is probably shot with different bullets, brass, and primers, and certainly different barrels. Bullet style, material, and hardness, seating depth, (Old Hercules data gave seating depth which was a direct measure of powder space, which OAL does not give due to differences in nose shapes.), brass hardness, primer mix, etc., etc., are what make the difference between handloading and reloading and is what the fine print about "starting loads" and "working up" is about. Nice pictures, Unclenick. Y'all be careful now, you hear. |
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