Watch those nipples

Pahoo · March 26, 2017, 12:16 PM

A friend of mine just got started into C&B. Right off, he encountered a chain-fire that I had not heard of. He loaded his new Remington and on firing, he ignited three chamber. He took all the standard precautions, up front but did not pay enough attention to the nipples. The flash/ignition is not happen from cap fit but rather from the nipple threads to adjacent nipples. On rechecking, he found that his nipples were loose and he had not sealed the threads. Just thought I'd pass this on. ......

Be Safe !!!

g.willikers · March 26, 2017, 12:50 PM

Hmm, that's definitely one more thing to consider, for sure.
Hope your friend didn't get put off.
As long as he didn't have anything important in front of the cylinder, it's not too likely he was in any danger.

J.G.Watson · March 26, 2017, 04:33 PM

Quote:

he had not sealed the threads

What would be a proper way to seal the threads, anti-seize compound?

Rebel Dave · March 26, 2017, 05:57 PM

When I reinstall my nipples, on any of my guns, I use 3-M copper anti seize. Just smidgen, and put it on with a toothpic. It keeps them from getting stuck. I don't know how much it seals them tho. The main thing is to keep them tight.
Italian guns used to come new with the nipples installed by an Italian Gorrila, I havn't noticed that on my two new h guns. some of the were only finger tight.

Rebel Dave

Pahoo · March 26, 2017, 06:04 PM

Quote:

What would be a proper way to seal the threads, anti-seize compound?

Not sure what he is using as we all have our favorites. On the bench, I like to use the copper based and In my field kit, I use a crayon type stick that some folks use on sparkplug threads. Regardless of the nipple or even a breech plug, I use and anti-seize. Just make sure not to plug any vents....

Be Safe !!!

Beagle333 · March 26, 2017, 08:36 PM

Never heard of that either, but will watch out for it! Thanks.

I use the blue breech plug grease when I reinstall nipples. Just a touch of it with a toothpick around the threads and they are all coated. They're sealed well and easily removed later.

bedbugbilly · March 26, 2017, 11:00 PM

Did your friend remove the nipples prior to shooting? As in, when he cleaned the revolver before shooting? My guess is that if he did and he removed the nipples, he never tightened them up with a nipple wrench. Of, if he didn't remove them, he never checked them as "from there factory". If the nipples are the correct size, there shouldn't be a problem around the threads when seated tightly. On a Remington cylinder, the nipples fit at an angle so I believe that if not seated properly, the cylinder would still turn. On a Colt, if not seated correctly, there wouldn't be room between the recoil shield and the capped nipple and you would get cylinder bind.

Also, was he using caps that fit tight to the nipples and were the correct size for the nipple?

In over 50 years of shooting C & B, I have only seen two chain fires (while watching others shoot). One on a '51 Navy and the other on an original '58 Remington. The faut traced back to the Remington was due to modern nipples in the original worn oversize nipple holes in the original cylinder. Cure was to re-do nipple holes in the cylinder and use nipples with oversized threads.

Everyone uses different things on their nipple threads. All I do is apply a drop of 3 in 1 oil on the nipple three and seat them "tightly' with a proper fitting nipple wrench - and it's important to use a correctly fitting wrench. I don't remove the nipples each time that I clean - I do perhaps ever half dozen times I shoot. Again though, correct fitting threads and seated tightly, there should be no problem with that being the cause of chain fire. Moral of the story . . . "make sure your nipples are tight".

Model12Win · March 27, 2017, 10:33 AM

Get SlIx-ShOtS nipples, or however they're spelled.

g.willikers · March 27, 2017, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Italian guns used to come new with the nipples installed by an Italian Gorilla

Yup, that's my trusty old Pietta Remington.
They're in for life, but there's no worry they will ever loosen.

Pahoo · March 27, 2017, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Did your friend remove the nipples prior to shooting?

My overall answer. would have to be; I don't think so.

He is an experienced competition shooter/collector and historically, he does his homework. However, as previously stated, he is new to C&B's. As we progress on this learning curve we sometimes get hurt. .......

Quote:

When I reinstall my nipples, on any of my guns, I use 3-M copper anti seize.

This what I use, as well ......

Be Safe !!!

Hellgate · March 27, 2017, 12:25 PM

Pahoo,
Was your buddy's Remmie a brass or steel framed gun? I'm convinced that more chain fires from the rear occur in brassers where the recoil ring (Colt's) or shield (Remingtons) get pounded back to where the cylinder can move rearward under recoil. Eventually as the brass is dented in further & further the capped nipples actually strike the recoil shield and fire the chambers. I really can't see how flame is gonna get around a properly seated cap and down into the flash hole to ignite the powder.

Bishop Creek · March 27, 2017, 01:36 PM

Hellgate may be on to something. The only chain fire I ever had was back in 1970 or so with my first cap and ball revolver, a brass framed 1851 Colt style, that I ignorantly fired with full house loads. The cylinder eventually became so loose that to fire it, I had to hold it back toward the hammer with my left hand while I pulled the trigger with my right.

Pahoo · March 27, 2017, 01:52 PM

Quote:

I really can't see how flame is gonna get around a properly seated cap and down into the flash hole to ignite the powder.

Hellgate,
I have read and heard that this can happen. Most of the time you hear about the chain fire happening at the front end of the cylinder and then later folks started saying that it can happen on the back end, under the caps. Personally, I have never had a chain fire but don't shoot C&B, all that much. ....

However,
In this case, this is not what he is saying. He said that the flash was passing through the nipple threads. His confirmation or fix, was to pull all nipples, and reinstalled with anti-seize.

Quote:

Was your buddy's Remmie a brass

I don't know but will find out and forward your information. .... Thanks ....

Be Safe !!!

fineredmist · March 27, 2017, 04:01 PM

If the hammer spring has the correct tension and the very small flash holes in the nipples are not enlarged then unless the nipple is loose the possibility of a chain fire is remote.

The hammer strikes the cap which then detonates and holds the cap firmly in place as the burning gases flow through the very small opening which connects the small chamber in the nipple with the charge in the cylinder. The small hole acts as a check valve allowing only a very small amount of combustion gas from going back against the fired cap.

If the nipple is not tight the gases will escape to the rear and flash over the back of the cylinder and possibly igniting the neighboring cylinders.

The larger the charge the more tension on the hammer spring is needed and in a Colt WALKER the hammer spring is very heavy to be able to seal up the cylinder with a 60 gr. charge.

If the ball is shaved when seated and a lube is used to seal the cylinder then the possibility of a front end flash over is eliminated.

drobs · March 30, 2017, 10:01 AM

This thread has some good points on chain fires.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/arc...?t-299487.html

Having slightly unscrewed nipples could cause the cap to hit the recoil shield and ignite during recoil.

Seems to me, the use of slightly oversized ball - (example .454 dia in a 44 Pietta) - that shaves a ring of lead, has ended the chain fires from the cylinder face. No messy over the ball lube required.

This fella postulates that over the ball lube could cause a chain fire on the 2nd loading.

http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2.html

He purposely induced chain fires to his gun. His other point is that chain fires don't damage the gun. Nor will they damage you as long as you keep your fingers, face, body away from the front of the cylinder.

**4V50 Gary** · March 30, 2017, 11:00 AM

Thanks!

Rebel Dave · March 30, 2017, 01:41 PM

Just recently on the Outdoor channel they had a program on Colt revolvers in the Civil War. They showed .36 1851s, and .44 1860s firing up close. It was in real slow motion. When the hammer hit the nipple, and cap, you could see ignition, you could actually see the hammer bounce back, under recoil. They were shooting Italian repros, (they didn't mention the manufacturer). They said nothing about these guns having any kind of modifications. Even the CW muskets they shot, the hammer would bounce back, under ignition. The motion was so slow you could see the projectiles coming out of the barrel. So..........
this makes me wonder if this isn't more common than you think, on firing cap,and ball pistols. Just a thought.

Rebel Dave

Tinbucket · March 30, 2017, 02:23 PM

I have seen many cap and ball revolvers blast though nipple holes, not so much from recoil make the hammers rebound.
Too large a hole in the nipple insures good ignition, but caps often disentegrate, with pieces flying everywhere and it is possible for fire to get to other nipples. The too soft nipples deform to will let flame out and also tear up the spent caps.
I've got some sure fire, I think, on an 1858, that has small holes on the side of the nipple no crossfires with them.
I had a cross fire last year, from a gun I had never shot, despite having it for decades.
Too small a ball and a bit of powder on the outside on the ball.
No dramatics other than a hefty recoil and one round in target and the other who knows where.
I like 777 and use lubed felt wads. Three of them on small charges, two on hefty charges. The loads are recessed a good bit into the cylinder still.
I use over size balls some times 4 thousands oversize. Provides a heavier bullet and better grip of the lands. And no flash over or cross fire.
never liked covering the balls with grease. It goes every where and makes clean up worse.
777 is simple clean up and use clean/and lube spray and wipe it down after just rinsing.oil is heck on black powder. Gun is virtually dry when it is put up.
These nipples haven't deformed much with maybe a hundred shots.
I have been looking on the net at the wide variety of nipples and some hard ones have caught my eye. Don't remember names so I would have to look again.
Oh I don't get pieces of cap on my face with these so far.
I think it is time they made heavier metal caps. I don't know how heavy they were in the olden days but didn't hear much of getting pieces of caps in their eyes.

March 26, 2017, 12:16 PM	#1
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Watch those nipples A friend of mine just got started into C&B. Right off, he encountered a chain-fire that I had not heard of. He loaded his new Remington and on firing, he ignited three chamber. He took all the standard precautions, up front but did not pay enough attention to the nipples. The flash/ignition is not happen from cap fit but rather from the nipple threads to adjacent nipples. On rechecking, he found that his nipples were loose and he had not sealed the threads. Just thought I'd pass this on. ...... Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

March 26, 2017, 12:50 PM	#2
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Hmm, that's definitely one more thing to consider, for sure. Hope your friend didn't get put off. As long as he didn't have anything important in front of the cylinder, it's not too likely he was in any danger. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

March 26, 2017, 08:36 PM	#6
Beagle333 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: Auburn, AL. Posts: 2,332	Never heard of that either, but will watch out for it! Thanks. I use the blue breech plug grease when I reinstall nipples. Just a touch of it with a toothpick around the threads and they are all coated. They're sealed well and easily removed later. __________________ . . . Have a Colt and a smile.

March 26, 2017, 11:00 PM	#7
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Did your friend remove the nipples prior to shooting? As in, when he cleaned the revolver before shooting? My guess is that if he did and he removed the nipples, he never tightened them up with a nipple wrench. Of, if he didn't remove them, he never checked them as "from there factory". If the nipples are the correct size, there shouldn't be a problem around the threads when seated tightly. On a Remington cylinder, the nipples fit at an angle so I believe that if not seated properly, the cylinder would still turn. On a Colt, if not seated correctly, there wouldn't be room between the recoil shield and the capped nipple and you would get cylinder bind. Also, was he using caps that fit tight to the nipples and were the correct size for the nipple? In over 50 years of shooting C & B, I have only seen two chain fires (while watching others shoot). One on a '51 Navy and the other on an original '58 Remington. The faut traced back to the Remington was due to modern nipples in the original worn oversize nipple holes in the original cylinder. Cure was to re-do nipple holes in the cylinder and use nipples with oversized threads. Everyone uses different things on their nipple threads. All I do is apply a drop of 3 in 1 oil on the nipple three and seat them "tightly' with a proper fitting nipple wrench - and it's important to use a correctly fitting wrench. I don't remove the nipples each time that I clean - I do perhaps ever half dozen times I shoot. Again though, correct fitting threads and seated tightly, there should be no problem with that being the cause of chain fire. Moral of the story . . . "make sure your nipples are tight". __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

March 27, 2017, 12:25 PM	#11
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	Pahoo, Was your buddy's Remmie a brass or steel framed gun? I'm convinced that more chain fires from the rear occur in brassers where the recoil ring (Colt's) or shield (Remingtons) get pounded back to where the cylinder can move rearward under recoil. Eventually as the brass is dented in further & further the capped nipples actually strike the recoil shield and fire the chambers. I really can't see how flame is gonna get around a properly seated cap and down into the flash hole to ignite the powder. __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

March 26, 2017, 05:57 PM	#4
Rebel Dave Member Join Date: March 1, 2008 Location: Burlington Wis. Posts: 41	When I reinstall my nipples, on any of my guns, I use 3-M copper anti seize. Just smidgen, and put it on with a toothpic. It keeps them from getting stuck. I don't know how much it seals them tho. The main thing is to keep them tight. Italian guns used to come new with the nipples installed by an Italian Gorrila, I havn't noticed that on my two new h guns. some of the were only finger tight. Rebel Dave

March 27, 2017, 10:33 AM	#8
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Get SlIx-ShOtS nipples, or however they're spelled.

March 27, 2017, 01:36 PM	#12
Bishop Creek Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Posts: 566	Hellgate may be on to something. The only chain fire I ever had was back in 1970 or so with my first cap and ball revolver, a brass framed 1851 Colt style, that I ignorantly fired with full house loads. The cylinder eventually became so loose that to fire it, I had to hold it back toward the hammer with my left hand while I pulled the trigger with my right.

March 27, 2017, 04:01 PM	#14
fineredmist Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2008 Location: Wethersfield, ct Posts: 128	If the hammer spring has the correct tension and the very small flash holes in the nipples are not enlarged then unless the nipple is loose the possibility of a chain fire is remote. The hammer strikes the cap which then detonates and holds the cap firmly in place as the burning gases flow through the very small opening which connects the small chamber in the nipple with the charge in the cylinder. The small hole acts as a check valve allowing only a very small amount of combustion gas from going back against the fired cap. If the nipple is not tight the gases will escape to the rear and flash over the back of the cylinder and possibly igniting the neighboring cylinders. The larger the charge the more tension on the hammer spring is needed and in a Colt WALKER the hammer spring is very heavy to be able to seal up the cylinder with a 60 gr. charge. If the ball is shaved when seated and a lube is used to seal the cylinder then the possibility of a front end flash over is eliminated.

March 30, 2017, 10:01 AM	#15
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	This thread has some good points on chain fires. https://thefiringline.com/forums/arc...?t-299487.html Having slightly unscrewed nipples could cause the cap to hit the recoil shield and ignite during recoil. Seems to me, the use of slightly oversized ball - (example .454 dia in a 44 Pietta) - that shaves a ring of lead, has ended the chain fires from the cylinder face. No messy over the ball lube required. This fella postulates that over the ball lube could cause a chain fire on the 2nd loading. http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2.html He purposely induced chain fires to his gun. His other point is that chain fires don't damage the gun. Nor will they damage you as long as you keep your fingers, face, body away from the front of the cylinder. __________________ NRA Life Member

March 30, 2017, 11:00 AM	#16
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Thanks! __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 30, 2017, 01:41 PM	#17
Rebel Dave Member Join Date: March 1, 2008 Location: Burlington Wis. Posts: 41	Just recently on the Outdoor channel they had a program on Colt revolvers in the Civil War. They showed .36 1851s, and .44 1860s firing up close. It was in real slow motion. When the hammer hit the nipple, and cap, you could see ignition, you could actually see the hammer bounce back, under recoil. They were shooting Italian repros, (they didn't mention the manufacturer). They said nothing about these guns having any kind of modifications. Even the CW muskets they shot, the hammer would bounce back, under ignition. The motion was so slow you could see the projectiles coming out of the barrel. So.......... this makes me wonder if this isn't more common than you think, on firing cap,and ball pistols. Just a thought. Rebel Dave

March 30, 2017, 02:23 PM	#18
Tinbucket Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2015 Posts: 355	watch those nipples I have seen many cap and ball revolvers blast though nipple holes, not so much from recoil make the hammers rebound. Too large a hole in the nipple insures good ignition, but caps often disentegrate, with pieces flying everywhere and it is possible for fire to get to other nipples. The too soft nipples deform to will let flame out and also tear up the spent caps. I've got some sure fire, I think, on an 1858, that has small holes on the side of the nipple no crossfires with them. I had a cross fire last year, from a gun I had never shot, despite having it for decades. Too small a ball and a bit of powder on the outside on the ball. No dramatics other than a hefty recoil and one round in target and the other who knows where. I like 777 and use lubed felt wads. Three of them on small charges, two on hefty charges. The loads are recessed a good bit into the cylinder still. I use over size balls some times 4 thousands oversize. Provides a heavier bullet and better grip of the lands. And no flash over or cross fire. never liked covering the balls with grease. It goes every where and makes clean up worse. 777 is simple clean up and use clean/and lube spray and wipe it down after just rinsing.oil is heck on black powder. Gun is virtually dry when it is put up. These nipples haven't deformed much with maybe a hundred shots. I have been looking on the net at the wide variety of nipples and some hard ones have caught my eye. Don't remember names so I would have to look again. Oh I don't get pieces of cap on my face with these so far. I think it is time they made heavier metal caps. I don't know how heavy they were in the olden days but didn't hear much of getting pieces of caps in their eyes.