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Old February 26, 2021, 03:56 PM   #76
Alan0354
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Thanks Wild Cat McCane

It is good to talk it out loud here. I still have 9 more days to wallow around before I can buy another gun. So that's all I can do....talk for now. It's good to clear up a lot of question thanks to you and others.
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Old February 26, 2021, 04:53 PM   #77
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Alan, if you are looking for a gun that was designed around the .40 cartridge, check out the HK USP
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Old February 26, 2021, 07:09 PM   #78
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@Alan0354
Glad that I could help. That being said, I own an M&P40 Shield 1.0 which is going to replace my SW40VE during Summer. In many ways, the Shield is a superior pistol to the SD40, so if that's an option, then you may want to give it a second look. The Shield is very slim, lightweight, and easy to carry. Plus the Shield has a nicer trigger than the SD40.



Yes, the M&P40 Shield holds half the rounds of the SD40, (7 vs 14) but then again, there are a lot of politicians including the President himself who are pushing for the reinstatement of the Assault Weapons Ban, which would effectively limit magazine capacity across the US to 10 rounds. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't California already have magazine capacity restrictions in place? Because if so, then that's just all the more reason to consider the M&P40 Shield over the SD40.

Don't get me wrong, the SD40 is an excellent pistol, so if you just like it more, then go right ahead and get one, it will serve you well. I'm just saying don't write off the M&P40 Shield because it's an excellent pistol too with its own set of advantages.

Lastly, I don't know what is on the CA Aproved List, but if the M&P40 Compact 1.0 is on the list, then that is also a great option. In fact, I'm looking into getting one myself.
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Old February 26, 2021, 07:41 PM   #79
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Sadly it's not on the approved list. Only the M&P Shield. I would love to get the M&P 2.0 or similar to what you have.

We in Kalif already have the 10 rounds limit. That's the reason Glock 19 is not as attractive for me and ending up with the Glock 26. I am sure the SD40 is a good gun. The law in kalif doesn't even make sense, you would think they will approve the bigger M&P, not just the Shield.

thanks
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Old February 26, 2021, 07:43 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Willie Lowman View Post
Alan, if you are looking for a gun that was designed around the .40 cartridge, check out the HK USP
It's expensive!!! I like it, just $$$. I guess if you want DA/SA, you have to pay.
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Old February 26, 2021, 08:46 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Alan0354
Sadly it's not on the approved list. Only the M&P Shield. I would love to get the M&P 2.0 or similar to what you have.

We in Kalif already have the 10 rounds limit. That's the reason Glock 19 is not as attractive for me and ending up with the Glock 26. I am sure the SD40 is a good gun. The law in kalif doesn't even make sense, you would think they will approve the bigger M&P, not just the Shield.

thanks
What I have is a SW40VE, which is just the last-gen variant of the SD40, but not quite as nice because it has a proprietary rail system that nobody uses anymore and a heavier trigger, so you'll actually have a better gun with the SD40.
Unless you're talking about my Performance Center M&P40 Shield 1.0, which is just an M&P40 Shield 1.0 with a ported barrel/slide, tuned trigger, and night sights. Normally I wouldn't have even gotten a PC model, but I found it on sale for $350 online, (cheaper than standard models) so I couldn't pass it up.

If you already are limited to 10 rounds, then yeah, definitely consider the Shield, it holds 7+1, so you wouldn't be losing much in terms of capacity, but you'd be gaining a firearm that is smaller, lighter, easier to carry, and has a better trigger than the SD40.
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Old February 26, 2021, 08:58 PM   #82
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Would someone please acknowledge there isn't a single factory load 10mm round a handgun owner can buy that is a concern for any 10mm made handgun?

Exclude Underwood and hand loading--there is no round that is a concern because all factory loads are at 40 levels. So is a 40 in a 45 frame ever considered dangerous? No.
https://winchester.com/Products/Ammu...vertip/W10MMST

https://www.speer.com/ammunition/han...9-54000GD.html
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Old February 26, 2021, 09:40 PM   #83
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Hi Forte S&W

I looked at the video of total disassembly of M&P Shield, it's pretty impressive. It has the front and the rear metal block that the slide riding on, that takes most of the stress off the polymer frame. Stuffs are quite beefy. The guy said the front block is made of steel, he did not say about the rear block. If it is steel, that would be very durable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsdlFUMKt6E

I have to put this M&P 40 into play also. I know Glock is very reliable and durable, that it will last a long time. But by looking at the construction, the M&P looks better IF the rear block is steel.

I have to look for a store that carry the M&P 40 Shield and see how much they charge. Only one thing is Glock 45ACP is 10 rounds, M&P 40 Shield is smaller.
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Old February 26, 2021, 10:20 PM   #84
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The M&P Shield's slide, barrel, slide rail, chasis, and sights are all stainless steel, with a case hardening process applied. It is an extremely rugged design which I have grown very fond of.

The Sigma Series is also nice, but it's an older design which is largely based on the Glock and nowadays basically serves as Smith & Wesson's budget offering. The M&P Series is the successor to the Sigma Series which combines elements of the Sigma as well as the SW99, thus essentially making it an enhanced hybrid design between that of the Glock and Walther P99, two of the best polymer-framed pistols ever produced. I think that's part pf what makes the M&P's design so ingenious, the fact that it has design elements from multiple time-proven designs, combined with Smith & Wesson's own personal modifications/improvements.
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Old February 26, 2021, 11:20 PM   #85
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Good to know about the stainless steel. I am sold on S&W. I have quite a few of the revolvers too. Definitely very high quality gun. I really like my 659 and my two 36. I just got some Hoppe's gun grease so I can lube the slide rail just a little. It's been years since I've done anything on it. It's my main defense gun at home, always loaded next to me in bed. Trust my life with that 659 for decades.

Ha ha, you heard of the 659? That's old!!!

Sadly I ruined my Model 19 at the time. I had it smooth out and changed the trigger. It was a very good target gun.....until I widen the gap between the cylinder and the barrel. It had a very tight fit( must be like 0.004" gap). It tended to bind after it got a little dirty like 100 rounds. The spec called for more, so I widened it just a little and I lost it, it started to have flyers. Too bad, it was still way within spec like 0.006" or so. I don't remember the exact number, but I did not do anything wrong. It's not easy to find an accurate gun. Now I only have the Colt Gold Cup and the Ruger Mark II that can match the performance. I have a Colt Trouper, but that's huge, 8" barrel!!

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Old February 27, 2021, 12:16 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
Would someone please acknowledge there isn't a single factory load 10mm round a handgun owner can buy that is a concern for any 10mm made handgun?

Exclude Underwood and hand loading--there is no round that is a concern because all factory loads are at 40 levels. So is a 40 in a 45 frame ever considered dangerous? No.
This took me all of 5 seconds too find and was first manufacture I looked at. Need to shoot something other then Winchester white box.

http://https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/#!/
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Old February 27, 2021, 12:51 AM   #87
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...all factory <10mm> loads are at 40 levels.
Already listed above are the Winchester 175gr STHP @1275fps and Speer's 200gr @ 1100fps loading.

There's also Hornady who makes a couple of full power 10mm loadings.

180grs @ 1275fps.
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/h...-180-gr-xtp#!/

155gr @ 1410fps.
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/h...5-gr-hp-xtp#!/

Federal has some hot loads in 10mm.

200gr @ 1200fps.
https://www.federalpremium.com/handg...1-P10SHC1.html

200gr @ 1200fps.
https://www.federalpremium.com/handg...11-F10FS1.html

180gr @ 1275fps.
https://www.federalpremium.com/handg.../11-P10T1.html

Even if one sticks to factory ammo from the major companies, it's possible to find 10mm loadings that far outpace .40S&W performance.
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Old February 27, 2021, 10:04 AM   #88
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Good to know about the stainless steel. I am sold on S&W. I have quite a few of the revolvers too. Definitely very high quality gun. I really like my 659 and my two 36. I just got some Hoppe's gun grease so I can lube the slide rail just a little. It's been years since I've done anything on it. It's my main defense gun at home, always loaded next to me in bed. Trust my life with that 659 for decades.

Ha ha, you heard of the 659? That's old!!!

Sadly I ruined my Model 19 at the time. I had it smooth out and changed the trigger. It was a very good target gun.....until I widen the gap between the cylinder and the barrel. It had a very tight fit( must be like 0.004" gap). It tended to bind after it got a little dirty like 100 rounds. The spec called for more, so I widened it just a little and I lost it, it started to have flyers. Too bad, it was still way within spec like 0.006" or so. I don't remember the exact number, but I did not do anything wrong. It's not easy to find an accurate gun. Now I only have the Colt Gold Cup and the Ruger Mark II that can match the performance. I have a Colt Trouper, but that's huge, 8" barrel!!
The 659 is an excellent pistol. S&W 2nd and 3rd Gen semiautomatics were top notch, it's a shame that they were so underappreciated, as I really think that they were better that a lot of the competition for their time, and could have stuck around as competition guns if they were aggressively marketed as such. We still have all metal competition guns like the SIG Equinox, Beretta 92X, and Walther Q4SF, so I think that a properly tuned Performance Center 5906 could fit in there too.

I only own one 3rd Gen, but it's enough for me because it was my grail gun. The California Highway Patrol 4006TSW.

That's why I tend to shy away from making modifications to firearms, sometimes the smallest change makes a big difference, and firearms that lock up tight, while generally less reliable than one with looser clearances between moving parts, can potentially be less accurate.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CHP_S&W_4006TSW+Buck_120.jpg (156.2 KB, 1934 views)
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Old February 27, 2021, 12:30 PM   #89
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Yes. And here is Speer Gold Dot factory loaded faster than their single 10mm option. Yes. 40 Speer Gold Dot factory is faster than 10mm. Also, Speer didn't load their ONLY 10mm load fast. Weird. OR is it because Gold Dot in 200gr doesn't need to be fast? Speer knows what they are doing with their own bullet...

Clearly the difference is weight isn't making a difference because Gold Dot as reported by Speer for 9mm bests their 40 load which is lighter and slower in several of the tests.

https://www.speer.com/ammunition/han...9-23970GD.html


Here is G2 which 10mm isn't offered in. It's the newest Gold Dot bullet. It is only 100 less than the 10mm round. G2 performs better than previous Gold Dot loads. So...again. Speer offers a 40 round that is performing better and is only 85fps different. Am I literally wrong that 10mm is always 40 speed? Yep. Does it literally matter? nope. In fact, this 40 load is better because the bullet is better. Watch. G2 was made for the FBI contract. It stunk. Then they redesigned. Now it is better than Hornady Duty with the new 2020 version.

https://www.speer.com/ammunition/han.../19-23999.html

The best performing 9mm HST is their short barrel 150gr going slow. It's not even their +P rounds.


See the point? Arguing I'm literally wrong by less than 100fps difference between loads is now the soup of the day. I'm arguing, who cares. I say this because results between Gold Dot and HST in 9mm and 40, posted by Speer/Vista, shows small weight differences and speed differences aren't always the winner. 9mm bests 40 in slower and lighter weights in two of four types of tests. Steel being one of them where it holds more weight and penetrates more.

So...
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Old February 27, 2021, 01:20 PM   #90
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See the point? Arguing I'm literally wrong by less than 100fps difference between loads is now the soup of the day. I'm arguing, who cares. I say this because results between Gold Dot and HST in 9mm and 40, posted by Speer/Vista, shows small weight differences and speed differences aren't always the winner. 9mm bests 40 in slower and lighter weights in two of four types of tests. Steel being one of them where it holds more weight and penetrates more.
Civilian carry needs differ from LEO carry needs. LEO carry needs vary from assignment to assignment. We were doing well with bullets during the 1980's. Bullets are no more effective at stopping BG's today than they were 30 years ago with the exception of maybe the 9mm. However, the 9BPLE load of the 1980's worked just as well as the 357 magnum in actual shootings.
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Old February 27, 2021, 01:34 PM   #91
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I don't know that all of the duty criteria testing really makes much difference for the average person. I prefer 124 JHP to 150 JHP in 9mm. Depth of penetration or bullet/jacket separation isn't as important to me as the FBI that thinks 15 inches of penetration is needed to shoot through obstacles. I like a bullet that is relatively fast for caliber and dumps energy and has more limited penetration.

A 9mm with the most effective load isn't going to be better than a 40 with the most effective load.

155 JHP out of a 40 can be devastating.

It will spank a 124gr or 150gr 9mm all day, every day!
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Old February 27, 2021, 03:47 PM   #92
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The VAST majority of my carry is woods carry. I currently carry a 40 s&w with the 200 grain Buffalo Bore hard casts. A 10mm with hot loads definitely surpasses a 40 for woods carry by quite a bit, but I personally shoot my M&P 40 very well and shoot it the most, which IMO is more important, and the simple fact that at point blank range a 40 will do the job I need it to do just fine, last line of defense if bear spray is ineffective, and I live in the north northeast, so my only problems would be black bear. If I bought a 10mm I might switch, but my 40 is enough for my use. Currently 10mm ammo is the only plentiful ammo, every store I go to has plenty of it. But 40 is an excellent all around jack of all trades caliber that I like and am good with. If you are using it for only 2 legged home defense I wouldn’t bother getting a 10mm, a 40 will do just what you need it to do there, and is far less likely to over penetrate...


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Old February 27, 2021, 03:51 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Forte S+W View Post
The 659 is an excellent pistol. S&W 2nd and 3rd Gen semiautomatics were top notch, it's a shame that they were so underappreciated, as I really think that they were better that a lot of the competition for their time, and could have stuck around as competition guns if they were aggressively marketed as such. We still have all metal competition guns like the SIG Equinox, Beretta 92X, and Walther Q4SF, so I think that a properly tuned Performance Center 5906 could fit in there too.

I only own one 3rd Gen, but it's enough for me because it was my grail gun. The California Highway Patrol 4006TSW.

That's why I tend to shy away from making modifications to firearms, sometimes the smallest change makes a big difference, and firearms that lock up tight, while generally less reliable than one with looser clearances between moving parts, can potentially be less accurate.
I am still doing research and narrow down my option. Actually below was what I responded in another thread here that's where I am at, I gave it a lot more thoughts after communicating with you last night:

My priority is the gun, rounds are secondary. My logic is this:
1) Since I have plenty of smaller guns and I can't get anything smaller that worth buying, I am going for a bigger gun.

2) Since I am going for a bigger gun and I have 10 rounds limit + I have a very reliable DA/SA 9mm S&W659 that I legally have 2 14 rounds and 1 20 rounds magazine AND I already have a Glock 26. I might as well get a gun with higher caliber like 45, .40 or even 10mm to make the size worth while.

3) I would much prefer a DA/SA or even DA because this is mainly for home protection, I don't need super accurate. I already have a Gold Cup 45 already for competition.

4) Below $900 to $1000.

This make it very hard to find one. I would settle with a Glock, but it's really not DA safe. I've been searching around for .40 and 45ACP that is available for Kalif, Sig SP2022 is about the ONLY one that fits the bill, other than that, it would be HK or very expensive Sig 220. Both likely above $1000 mark.

I like S&W, why they stop making DA/SA guns like my 659? The 659 is perfect( problem is I have it already!!!). It would be perfect to have a 659 in .40, 10mm or 45ACP. At this point, I don't even necessary to have to buy a polymer.

I am starting to do research on Sig SP2022 .40. Luckily, I still have 8 days.....and counting to be able to buy a gun.


Thanks for the help.
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Old February 27, 2021, 04:34 PM   #94
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Yes. 40 Speer Gold Dot factory is faster than 10mm.
You're talking about a bullet that is 35 grains lighter. The 10mm load pushes a 200gr bullet at 1100fps, the .40S&W, pushes a 165gr bullet (18% lighter), 5% faster. By every measure other than just comparing velocity, the 10mm loading is quite a bit more potent.

If you compare energy, the 10mm loading is 11% higher than the .40S&W.
If you compare momentum/power factor, the 10mm loading is 16% higher than the .40S&W.

And that's a comparison where the 10mm loading is not really loaded as hot as it could be.

Looking at the Hornady offerings and comparing their 155gr loadings, the .40S&W loading is 1180fps, the 10mm is 1410fps. That's 19% higher in velocity (well over 200fps faster in an apples to apples comparison), 19% higher in momentum, 43% higher in energy.

Comparing apples to apples, the 10mm is considerably faster and more powerful than the .40S&W and it is certainly possible to find 10mm loadings, even from the major ammo manufacturers that easily outpace the .40S&W.

How much difference does that make on the street? Well, the FBI thought there wasn't much difference--that's how we got the watered down 10mm loadings and the .40S&W in the first place. But that's another debate. In terms of raw numbers, the situation is clear.
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Old February 27, 2021, 06:35 PM   #95
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I prefer the 10mm. I bought a Kimber 10mm Longslide Target. It has been outstanding in performance so far. It shoots .40 S&W just fine as well. No spring changes needed. I have run factory, and hand loads. The only factory ammo that has given hiccups was Herters 10mm. When the gun was new it would not cycle the slide all the way. The Sig ammo, and my hand loads have worked just fine. The Armscorp works fine as well. If you hand load note the Herters uses small primers.
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Old February 27, 2021, 07:34 PM   #96
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other than that, it would be HK or very expensive Sig 220. Both likely above $1000 mark.
Here's a .45 HK for less the 1K.
Again, don't know where you live in CA.
This one is in Modesto.
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1698195
There are deals out there, you might have to give up the notion of buying new or look around a bit.
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Old February 27, 2021, 07:48 PM   #97
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Thanks HighValleyRanch. I really prefer new ones.
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Old February 27, 2021, 08:13 PM   #98
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more

Here's "more" on the original 4 questions as posed by the OP

POPULAR-The .40 S&W took the LE world by storm when first introduced. The 10mm got a lukewarm start upon its introduction and the premier pistol it was to be chambered in, the Bren Ten, fell flat on its face. Over the years, popularity of the .40 is waning, and present binge buying aside, may well dwindle a bit more as the FBI contiunes to advise other LE agencies that the 9mm is all an officer needs. GLock and Colt kept the 10mm Auto cartridge afloat after the Bren Ten flopped. The 10mm has seen some renewed interest as a hunting semiauto handgun, certain hunting personalities keeping it in the limelight. The 10mm loaded to potential approaches magnum handgun power in a flat auto pistol format. The full size 10mm Glocks are BIG handguns to grip and tote and do not appeal to all. Most .40 caliber handguns are built on 9mm frames and are far more ergonomic for most folks. I'll go out on a limb and claim that the 1911 platform offers the most ergonomic grip for many in 10mm. Many may well find the single action trigger of the 1911 easier to shoot well.

COST-the market these days is through the roof, nothings cheap, but I think the occasional surfacing of used .40 pistols used from LE agencies may tilt the answer towards the .40 being a bit cheaper to acquire and feed. As a general rule, Glock pistols will be a good bit more affordable than a good 1911 /10mm.

EASE of acquisition- see above, everything is scarce at present. I'd lean towards .40 guns and ammo again regards availability, but not in any significant amount.

BEST- Best at what? To general a question to give a specific answer. I'd offer that a Glock 20 may offer the best compromise in cost, size and weight in the 10mm family, but that is my opinion. I shoot 1911's better, but have not shelled out the cash for a good one in 10mm. The 1911 was originally a .45acp of course, and adopted to the 10mm. Some believe a 10mm 1911 can be problematic. The Glock family typically run like a sewing machine, but the grip, trigger and factory barrel (lead not recommended) are stumbling blocks for others.

Finally......I own exactly one .40 S&W pistol, and carry and shoot it far less than my other, multiple, 10mm and .45 acp guns.
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Old February 28, 2021, 10:09 PM   #99
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9mm beats 40 as reported by Vista in steel, wallboard, and plywood. That's Gold Dot 40 in 165gr, not slow 180.

9mm went 2xs more into steel than 40.

9mm also went 3 inches more into steel in a non +P version than their hottest 40.

https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ba...omparison.aspx
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Old February 28, 2021, 11:08 PM   #100
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1. Velocity needs to be considered in the context of bullet weight. It's easy to get a lot of velocity with a very light bullet, but that's not necessarily beneficial as very light bullets can be poor penetrators.

2. Penetration needs to be taken in the context of expansion and also in the context of what is desirable for self-defense. Excessive penetration (especially without expansion) is considered to be undesirable by many--the FBI protocol grades a loading down if it penetrates beyond 18".

3. In general, trying to compare two loadings with only a single number is pointless unless all the other parameters (velocity, bullet weight, bullet construction, expansion, caliber, penetration) are identical, or nearly identical.

4. Because of the wide variety of loadings available, trying to draw conclusions about an entire caliber by looking at just a few loadings (or even just the loadings from one company) can be somewhat misleading, especially if the above 3 suggestions are not being followed.
Quote:
9mm beats 40 as reported by Vista in steel, wallboard, and plywood.
1. That resource allows one to compare up to nine 9mm loadings with up to four S&W loadings. Every single loading in each of those calibers provides different results in terms of penetration and expansion.

2. If you are in LE, then penetration through steel, plywood and glass are more likely to be applicable considerations. For civilian self-defense and even for typical LE, the bare gelatin and clothed gelatin figures (maybe wallboard) are likely to be more applicable.

If your goal is to prove that you can find a 9mm loading that penetrates more than a .40S&W loading, you can certainly do that. If you only care about penetration, then compare any FMJ 9mm with an expanding .40S&W and you're done. 9mm FMJ tends to penetrate about 2 feet in bare gel, expanding .40S&W probably won't even make 18" in bare gel. Of course, that's because most expanding ammo intended for self-defense is designed to penetrate less than 18", but it does simplify the search if you just want to compare penetration.

Similarly, if you want to prove that there's a 9mm loading that goes faster than a .40S&W loading, just look for a light bullet 9mm loading--you can probably find something in 90gr that will go close to 1500fps. Then compare it to a heavy bullet load in the .40S&W--maybe 200 grains--I would guess that you could, without too much trouble, find a load that didn't even make 900fps in that caliber with that bullet weight.

The problem is that kind of comparison doesn't really tell you much about how the two calibers compare because it is looking at extremes in both calibers and is only looking at one parameter at a time instead of looking at what kind of tradeoffs that result. For example, a very light bullet will likely result in low penetration numbers. A very fast bullet for caliber could be more likely to result in bullet failures.

Getting an overall feel for the differences in two calibers is not simple. Fortunately it's not really necessary--you can just pick a loading that gives you the performance you want in a caliber you like (within reason--if you go below 9mm, you may not be able to get both adequate expansion and penetration) and you're good to go.
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