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Old February 23, 2021, 08:39 PM   #51
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MarkCo is a member who is the pioneer of the shotgun portion of 3gun which basically created a new need for semi auto shotgun systems with expanding mag sizes. Different person, but take the compliment of the confused identity. Unless you think the targets in for shotgun in 3gun is a bit weird considering the intent of shotguns

Both the HST and Gold Dot factory loads are 200gr. Again though, they are at exactly the 40 factory FPS level. So is theat 20gr difference important? Probs not.
Those who load their own 10mm beg to disagree. With a max charge of Longshot powder a 200gr bullet will do 1170 fps from a 5" barrel according to Hodgdon. From a 6" barrel that's probably 1200 fps.
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Old February 23, 2021, 09:39 PM   #52
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And is that 200gr 10mm bullet going on to do more than the 40?

Probably not.

Cause if you just assume it does, you might be surprised the slow 147gr HST 9mm outperformed the heavier faster 40 in steel and windshield according to Vista Outdoor data.
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Old February 23, 2021, 10:07 PM   #53
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And is that 200gr 10mm bullet going on to do more than the 40?

Probably not.

Cause if you just assume it does, you might be surprised the slow 147gr HST 9mm outperformed the heavier faster 40 in steel and windshield according to Vista Outdoor data.
Better expansion and deeper penetration. One aspect about .40 that I don't like is it seems a lot of the defense ammo penetrates 12-13 inches, which is fine for self defense, but throw in barriers and I don't like it as much as I do 10mm, which rarely goes less than 14 inches in gel with a bullet that weighs less than 175 grains.
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Old February 24, 2021, 11:14 PM   #54
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And is that 200gr 10mm bullet going on to do more than the 40?

Probably not.

Cause if you just assume it does, you might be surprised the slow 147gr HST 9mm outperformed the heavier faster 40 in steel and windshield according to Vista Outdoor data.
The 10mm has more potential.

Effective in jello tests does not necessarily equal effective on the street.
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Old February 25, 2021, 02:12 PM   #55
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Vista tests in jello, steel plate, drywall, and auto glass.

HST/Gold Dot 9mm in slower 147gr beat 40 and 357 in some of those.

So no, it's not just FPS.
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Old February 25, 2021, 07:58 PM   #56
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So no, it's not just FPS.
Of course not. Bullet construction, weight, velocity, diameter all play a role. Velocity=energy=ability to do work.

It is more complicated than x penetration X y diameter.
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Old February 25, 2021, 08:16 PM   #57
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Glock 23 is looking sweeter and sweeter. I don't need the maximum velocity or power as long as .40 is more powerful than 9mm. I am a little scared that a lot of 10mm and .40 guns started out from 9mm, they have to thin out everything to keep the gun in the same dimension. Read enough Kaboom with 10mm already. If I don't have 2 9mm, I would consider 9mm already. I don't need anything stronger than a 357 magnum.
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Old February 25, 2021, 08:38 PM   #58
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Glock 23 is looking sweeter and sweeter. I don't need the maximum velocity or power as long as .40 is more powerful than 9mm. I am a little scared that a lot of 10mm and .40 guns started out from 9mm, they have to thin out everything to keep the gun in the same dimension.
The Kabooms from 25 years ago cannot be compared with today's guns. The 10mm's are generally built on 45 frames, I am not sure I have ever seen one on a small frame.
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Old February 26, 2021, 02:00 AM   #59
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I just looked at the Glock site, all .40 has same slide width as the 9mm. They must be modified from 9mm.

The 10mm has the same slide width as the 45ACP. That's better.

That's what I was saying that the .40 must have less margin than 9mm. You can find more youtube on .40 and 10mm having kaboom than 9mm for glock.
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Old February 26, 2021, 02:17 AM   #60
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I am a little scared that a lot of 10mm and .40 guns started out from 9mm...
As Nanuk says, while the .40 was specifically made to fit into 9mm sized guns, the 10mm is something else entirely.

The cartridge is much longer than 9mm, so a simple conversion from 9mm to 10mm isn't at all likely unless the 9mm pistol is much larger than it needs to be.

As far as the Glocks go, the model numbers tell you the order that they were designed.

The Glock 20 (the first 10mm Glock) was in design before the Glock 21 (the first .45ACP Glock). So it would actually be more accurate to say that the Glock 21 slide is the same dimensions as the Glock 20, not the other way around.

The first .40S&W Glock was the Glock 22. It hit the market before the 20, but the 20 design was started before the 22 design. In fact, the Glock 20 design process likely started before the .40S&W cartridge even existed. At any rate, worries that the 10mm Glocks are based on .40S&W designs, or on pistols of similar scale to 9mm, are unfounded.

The Glock 20 is much larger and heavier than any of the 9mm Glocks and is known for being very durable. In fact, it was the Glock 20's reputation for durability and my desire to get a 10mm pistol that drove me to buy my first Glock. I didn't care for the feel or look of the gun, but I did like the idea of something that could stand up to a lot of shooting with hot 10mm ammo, and at the time that meant buying a Glock 20.
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Old February 26, 2021, 04:02 AM   #61
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Hi JohnKSa
Yes, I notice that after I checked dimension of Glocks in post 59. 10mm pretty much have the same slide width as 45.

I was just converging to Glock 23!!!

If I consider 10mm, why don't I consider Glock 45ACP? Much more popular round. I don't think 45 is that powerful, I have a Gold Cup and been shooting that enough before. Never did I feel it's comparable to the power of 357 magnum that you guys compare 10mm to. I don't particular want to go the more power the better. Particular for home defense, not for hunting, I don't need to way overkill.

Well, I still have 10 more days before I can buy another gun, so I have time to wallow around.
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Old February 26, 2021, 05:22 AM   #62
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Hi JohnKSa
Yes, I notice that after I checked dimension of Glocks in post 59. 10mm pretty much have the same slide width as 45.

I was just converging to Glock 23!!!

If I consider 10mm, why don't I consider Glock 45ACP? Much more popular round. I don't think 45 is that powerful, I have a Gold Cup and been shooting that enough before. Never did I feel it's comparable to the power of 357 magnum that you guys compare 10mm to. I don't particular want to go the more power the better. Particular for home defense, not for hunting, I don't need to way overkill.

Well, I still have 10 more days before I can buy another gun, so I have time to wallow around.
You have to weight the options with both. To me, an extra two rounds in mag capacity isn't that big a difference, but when you compare it to 9mm and 17 rds, now the difference is doubled. Why carry a .45 when you can carry 9mm?

To me the biggest advantage to 10mm isn't just its power, its advantage is its available when 9 and .45 are not and its ability to shoot the 40 without anything being changed.

Now, I think 10mm is best with a longer barrel, so if you're getting a full size, go 10mm, if you're getting a compact, go with the .45, the .45 doesn't lose as much with a shorter barrel as 10mm does.

If this is for home defense then the .45 is actually a better option because it moves so slowly it does not penetrate hard barriers well and even with non hollow points the .45 is still effective.

But if you feel the need to buy a lot of ammo now and not 6 or 9 months from now, get the 10mm and grab 10mm and .40 as you see it.
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Old February 26, 2021, 06:02 AM   #63
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Thanks TruthTellers

I am in Kalif, I can only get 10rounds, so 9mm is not necessary an advantage. In fact that's the only reason I look at .40 or 45. If I can get 17 rounds, I would have bought the Glock 19 instead of 26. I am limited to 10 rounds, so might as well get the smaller 26 for better concealment.

I was thinking about the slow 45 also, it is safer for home defense. I really not into overkill, don't want to get a cannon and shoot through walls and kill innocent people in the next house. I definitely do not want some 357 or 44 magnum that goes through walls.
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Old February 26, 2021, 09:43 AM   #64
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Your worry about 10mm being dangerous is completely without need. It's not necessary because there is almost no super high fps 10mm to buy. Even during good times. It simply does not exist unless you handload or buy Underwood.

Here is a 357mag round at 1300fps.
https://ammoshoponline.com/shop/cali...efense-qty-50/

So again, almost EVERYTHING you can buy is going to be exactly .40 speed and might even be the exact same bullet and bullet weight.

But again, even at 1300, I bet a 9mm HST bullet, a 40 HST bullet and the exact same constructed 200gr HST 10mm bullet all factory loaded bellow 1100fps will do more damage than this 1300FPS 357mag bullet.

The myth of HANDGUN level FPS causing damage using modern day bullets (cause why would you want to have to load an older bullet to higher FPS and get nothing out of it)...it lives on.
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Old February 26, 2021, 10:23 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan0354
Glock 23 is looking sweeter and sweeter. I don't need the maximum velocity or power as long as .40 is more powerful than 9mm. I am a little scared that a lot of 10mm and .40 guns started out from 9mm, they have to thin out everything to keep the gun in the same dimension. Read enough Kaboom with 10mm already. If I don't have 2 9mm, I would consider 9mm already. I don't need anything stronger than a 357 magnum.
Fortunately, firearms manufacturers seem to have realized by now that simply reeming out a 9mm pistol for .40 S&W doesn't work well as it compromises the structural integrity of the firearm as a whole. If you look at the dimensions of the new Glock 23 Gen 5, even Glock has finally figured that out.

If you're still worried about it, then get a Smith & Wesson M&P. S&W builds their pistols around the .40 S&W and modifies them to fit 9mm rather than the other way around. As a result, M&Ps tend to be a bit heavier/thicker than other brands, (except for the Shield) but they hold up to .40 S&W extremely well.

As for 10mm pistols, those are actually tend to be built on .45 ACP frames, which seems to do the job just fine. However, you may want to fit a 10mm with a heavier recoil spring since most seem to be designed around the more common FBI Loads, and therefore might wear out more quickly if you're shooting full-power loads.
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Old February 26, 2021, 12:00 PM   #66
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Would someone please acknowledge there isn't a single factory load 10mm round a handgun owner can buy that is a concern for any 10mm made handgun?

Exclude Underwood and hand loading--there is no round that is a concern because all factory loads are at 40 levels. So is a 40 in a 45 frame ever considered dangerous? No.
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Old February 26, 2021, 12:34 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by wild cat mccane
So again, almost EVERYTHING you can buy is going to be exactly .40 speed and might even be the exact same bullet and bullet weight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild cat mccane
Exclude Underwood and hand loading--there is no round that is a concern because all factory loads are at 40 levels.
You keep saying that, but the numbers don't agree.

Pulling numbers from the ammo listings in The Sportsmans Guide web site, I looked at several .40 S&W and 10mm loads. In .40, the slowest was a Sellier & Bellot 180-gr at 968 FPS and 375 ft-lbs. The fastest was American Eagle 165-gr at 1130 FPS and 470 ft-lbs. The average for five well-known brands (two 165-gr and three 180-gr) was 1036 FPS and 415 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

Moving to 10mm, I again pulled numbers for five well-known brands. The slowest was American Eagle 180-gr at 1030 FPS and 425 ft-lbs. The fastest was Sig Sauer Elite 180-gr at 1250 FPS and 624 ft-lbs. The average for five well-known brands (four 180-gr and one 200-gr) was 1145 FPS and 537 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

That's not to say that most of the 10mm ammo being offered today is loaded at or near the maximum potential for the round; it's not. But your contention is that all 10mm ammo today is exactly the same as .40 S&W but loaded in a longer case, and that's simply not correct. Given that bullet weight has to be considered in conjunction with muzzle velocity, muzzle energy is a better criterion for comparing the two, and of the rounds I looked at all the .40 were in the low 400 ft-lb range (except the one that was 375), while the 10mm offering generally were well into the 500s, with one at 425 (which still beats all but one of the .40s), and one at 624.
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Old February 26, 2021, 01:12 PM   #68
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Fortunately, firearms manufacturers seem to have realized by now that simply reeming out a 9mm pistol for .40 S&W doesn't work well as it compromises the structural integrity of the firearm as a whole. If you look at the dimensions of the new Glock 23 Gen 5, even Glock has finally figured that out.

If you're still worried about it, then get a Smith & Wesson M&P. S&W builds their pistols around the .40 S&W and modifies them to fit 9mm rather than the other way around. As a result, M&Ps tend to be a bit heavier/thicker than other brands, (except for the Shield) but they hold up to .40 S&W extremely well.

As for 10mm pistols, those are actually tend to be built on .45 ACP frames, which seems to do the job just fine. However, you may want to fit a 10mm with a heavier recoil spring since most seem to be designed around the more common FBI Loads, and therefore might wear out more quickly if you're shooting full-power loads.
Sadly I can only get gen 3 Glock in kalif.

No wonder all S&W M&P 9 are so heavy compare to Glock. The only one that is legal in kalif is S&W SD40. Do you know of any document that said it started out designing in .40 and modified to 9mm later. That's important as I would change from Glock to S&W if it is beefier.

I looked at the internal pictures of SD40, looks very much like a copy of Glock.

Thanks

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Old February 26, 2021, 01:14 PM   #69
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And your average 10mm fps (not even 1200fps) is lower than a lot of commercial shelf 9mm loads. The majority of range grade commercial 9mm (Speer lawman, American Eagle, Fiocchi, S&B), all in mid weight 124gr go faster than even your stated average which included defensive Sig hp. Even cheap typically $15 a box Federal defensive is going 1300fps in 9mm (admittedly high FPS for 9mm, but it isn't exotic as it 9BPL was the standard for a long time and can be purchased)

So no. There is no reason to fear 10mm guns that are built on 45 frames.

Your typical 9mm is producing more fps than almost every single 10mm option you can whip your credit card at.
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Old February 26, 2021, 01:23 PM   #70
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Not picking a fight, but anyone saying FPS makes 10mm worth it isn't right.

You can get commercial results in 10mm through 40. But you can also best 40 within commercial 9mm. That answers the OP question.

All 3 caliber options are going to do the exact same thing in FMJ on target, hot or not, heavy or not, "meplat" advertised "outdoor" load or not. Why? because we are 1,000fps away from rifle level damage. Heck, I bet the all copper .380 Lehigh Xtreme bullet will best any 10mm FMJ options, including Underwood, as it defeats ballistic glass without deflection of the bullet shape. The variation of penetration between loads in FMJ from 380 to 45 all fall within each other. For example, Luckygunner has an non expanded 380 HST reaching 31" in gel. That's the norm for most FMJ handgun rounds.

Don't just focus on the hype. Cause it's wrong. As proven by the people who make the bullets.
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Old February 26, 2021, 02:05 PM   #71
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"commercial results in 10mm through 40."(Wildcat)

But most of us don't shoot the .40 in our 10's, or carry them with weak rounds for serious matters... we like the hot stuff! Weak 10's and .40's are ok for target or small game though. That's why I stocked up on hot Underwood
10mm last fall.

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Old February 26, 2021, 02:15 PM   #72
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And tots awesome. I bet it is fun to shoot.

Probably isn't doing anything more than the 40 commercial Speer load of their Gold Dot. Hopefully isn't penetrating less because of the increased early expansion causing faster drag, an issue seen in other Underwood loads. Gold Dot is bonded, so you aren't getting larger expansion. Possible bullet failure if too fast, possible reduced penetration. Possibly nothing wrong. Meh.

Again. I bet they are fun to shoot.

I too have lots of 357 mag. No current bullet in any of my ammo compares to my HST 9mm. Still fun.
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Old February 26, 2021, 02:55 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Alan0354
Sadly I can only get gen 3 Glock in kalif.

No wonder all S&W M&P 9 are so heavy compare to Glock. The only one that is legal in kalif is S&W SD40. Do you know of any document that said it started out designing in .40 and modified to 9mm later. That's important as I would change from Glock to S&W if it is beefier.

I looked at the internal pictures of SD40, looks very much like a copy of Glock.
It's a well known fact that all of Smith & Wesson's semiautomatic pistols have been designed for .40 S&W since they first introduced the Sigma SW40F in 1994. It has been stated in a number of books by firearms historians as well as in official sources, but unfortunately I can't find any that I can link directly to here on the internet.

The SD40 looks like a Glock because the entire Sigma Series are based on Glock's design. In fact, Glock actually filed a lawsuit for patent infringement against S&W over the Sigma SW40F which was settled out of court and ultimately resulted in S&W making some internal modifications to the Sigma Series Gen 2 SW40E to address this.

I myself own a Gen 3 Sigma SW40VE, the predecessor to the current SD40.



Keep in mind that the Sigma Series predates the M&P Series, and although the Gen 4 SD40 came out 6 years after the M&P40 1.0, it's still largely based on a design which dates back to 1997, as you can probably tell by comparing the Gen 4 SD40 to my Gen 3 SW40VE. The most significant changes are cosmetic, altering the aesthetics to look less like a Glock and more like an M&P, otherwise the most significant internal changes are modifications to the fire control group to reduce the heavy 12lb trigger pull of the SW40VE down to a more acceptable 8lb trigger pull.

The Sigma Series is slighter in weight than the M&P Series because the latter has a stainless steel chasis embedded in the polymer frame whereas the Sigma Series is straight polymer, but don't let that throw you off, the Sigma Series was designed around .40 S&W, sporting fully supported barrels whereas the Glock does not.
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Old February 26, 2021, 03:32 PM   #74
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Thanks so much for explaining. It's just too bad that I cannot get my hands on the M&P 2.0. I would love to have one that has stainless steel unit embedded in polymer frame. I know the new Sig are doing that, just Sig has too much issue on the new modular guns.

Yeh, I have a Glock 26, when I look at the take down of the SD40, I started laughing, it's a Glock.....Which, I am not saying it's bad. It would be nice to get something different. I have a lot of older S&W including the 659, it's robust. AND I am not giving up my 659 no matter what!!!

That's also the motivation of looking into bigger calibers. I have a perfectly good legal 14/20 round mag 659 that is ultra reliable. I just bought a Glock 26. It's time to move on to another caliber.

too bad The only S&W legal in Kalif is the M&P Shield series and the SD40VE, no other choice. I looked at the M&P 40 Shield, it's only 20oz, that's definitely looks to be modification from the 9mm.

Sounds like it's back to Glock either 45 or 10mm. Just buy the slower 10mm. Seems like it's more worthy to buy 45ACP at this point, slower, heavier, better and safer for home protection.

BTW, I saw your Ruger. I almost decided on the LC380 until I realize I have a Walther PPK, not the PPKS that I thought all these years!!! Compare LC380 to my Walther PPK, the difference is very minimal. I worked to make the PPK very reliable already, there is no reason to buy another one that has no weight/size advantage. In fact, PPK is a DA/SA with hammer drop on safety. That's the best of the best already. So now I switch my direction on a bigger size, larger caliber gun.

I am just talking out loud.
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Old February 26, 2021, 03:43 PM   #75
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You're thinking right.

There is not magic caliber. Gold Dot/HST/XTP are the magic bullets that raise them to equal or better within each other.

Given that, 9mm has nothing wrong going for it.

You'll spend less and shop less exotically to get a better bullet loaded in your round if you go 45 over 10mm.

Good luck
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