May 7, 2017, 02:25 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,952
|
Texas No-Guns Signs...
....Red sign, blue sign and both?
I guy in Texas took out and active shooter the other day with his carry gun. He has a permit. It shooting happened at a place called The Zona Caliente Sports Bar that serves alcohol. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/goo...3Gc?li=BBnb7Kz It is my understanding that Texas carry laws dictate that if a business generates 51% or more of it's revenue from alcohol, it must post accordingly, this sign is "red" and it is a felony to carry past this sign. The Blue sign indicates that the establishment sells alcohol, but does not meet the 51% requirement, so it is legal to carry past a "blue" sign? According to police, this business posted both a blue and a red and the "Good Samaritan" carried past them both. http://www.star-telegram.com/news/lo...148554034.html Did this good Samaritan violate Texas law and did he commit a felony? |
May 7, 2017, 02:31 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
|
There was the blue and red sign up, with the red believed to be in error.
One way or the other, this local hero won't be criminally charged. (If he had been in Austin TX they would have prosecuted "to the fullest extent of the law " as the DA announced a couple years ago. ) In the rest of Texas there is common sense.
__________________
Cave illos in guns et backhoes |
May 7, 2017, 02:40 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,952
|
The good Samaritan had no way of knowing that the Red sign was posted in error. For all he knew the red sign was the proper sign and he carried past it anyway?
|
May 7, 2017, 03:07 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
|
I understand he was a regular there, so that assumption may not be correct.
__________________
Cave illos in guns et backhoes |
May 7, 2017, 06:16 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,886
|
There was both a Blue AND Red sign (the red being in error).
And since the ESTABLISHMENT was in fact "Blue," he was legal. |
May 7, 2017, 08:06 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 456
|
This is probably the most ridiculous law on the books. Its quite laughable. How about just saying you cant carry and consume alcohol at the same time? No drink and carry! There will still be drunks at a business where alcohol is consumed 35% of the time. Are they betting the majority of patrons not drinking will be a safety mechanism against the ones who are?
I honestly believe that anyone serving a responsible function, whether that be driving, carrying, etc., should NOT be consuming alcohol. This red sign, blue sign serves no purpose except for laughs and kicks. While they are at it, they should probably make a law stating no drinking and legislating at the same time. I smell booze with this red sign, blue sign thing. |
May 7, 2017, 09:31 PM | #7 |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,460
|
Remember the statistic that there are more than 20,000 gun laws to be kept track of. This is just one example, and similar restrictions fall all over the spectrum. Some jurisdictions simply don't allow carry in establishments that sell alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption. Some use a 51% of income criterion -- and not all require posting. Others allow carry in the dining room portion of restaurants with bars, but not the bar area. I think it has changed recently, but as of a few years ago North Carolina didn't allow carry anywhere in an establishment that served alcohol.
That last one tripped me up. I was visiting a friend, and we went to a Red Lobster for lunch one day. I started to unholster in order to leave my gun under the seat of the car, since I thought I remembered that carry wasn't allowed. My friend asked what I was doing. When I told him, he said, "No problem it's okay." So I carried. When I got home, I researched it. I had been correct. What my friend meant by, "It's okay," was that he didn't think anybody would catch us. So he led me to break the law -- which did not make me very happy. I'm a generally risk-aversive person. It's fine for him to take that risk, but I thought it was unacceptable for him to have led me to break the law without expalining it to me up front. The bottom line is, as always, there is no substitute for knowing the laws of the jurisdiction you're in. The applicable law may be silly, it may be stupid, it's likely difficult to understand -- but it's the law. |
May 7, 2017, 09:45 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,583
|
In Washington I can't carry in a bar though I can carry into the attached dining room. Just 6 miles away in Oregon I can carry into a bar as long as I don't consume any alcohol. In Oregon you can "open carry" in a car but in Washington carrying in a car is concealed carry.
I have carry permits for both states and am obliged to know the rules of each. The big one for me is that even if a shop has a "no guns" sign I can legally enter with a concealed weapon in Washington. In Oregon if the sign is up you can't carry in the facility. In the past I have carried my concealed pistol onto a federal nuclear reservation with the full knowledge of the guards - which is contrary to the law. |
May 8, 2017, 09:05 AM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,952
|
How is the statute worded in Texas?
Does it say that carrying in an establishment that derives 51% of it's income is a felony, or does it say something about carrying passed or entering a business with a 51% sign posted is a felony? |
May 8, 2017, 09:30 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
When I originally took my class MI had laws that you could not carry in an establishment that generated more than 50% of its revenue from the sale of alcohol to be consumed on the premise. We were instructed to be cautious of that because there was no signage requirement and some places (like bowling alleys) may fall into that category if it ever came down to checking.
I was told at the time that it was not a "reasonable person should have known" standard. It was black and white - they either did or did not. |
May 8, 2017, 11:20 AM | #11 | ||
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,460
|
Quote:
Quote:
The red (51%) sign: https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publica.../weapons51.pdf |
||
May 8, 2017, 11:41 AM | #12 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 7,523
|
Quote:
Quote:
As I discussed in another thread about this incident, I was once almost tripped up at a live music venue where the 51% sign was mostly obscured. Fortunately, I double-checked after noticing that no food was being served, which is a typical hallmark of a 51% business. However, if the LTC holder knows that an establishment is NOT a 51% business and is signed improperly, carry is allowed, because the signage is not the critical determining factor. This may have been the case in the recent incident, although it's not entirely clear from the news reports. Mandatory disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV. This is not legal advice. Caveat emptor and YMMV.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak Last edited by carguychris; May 8, 2017 at 02:18 PM. Reason: typo, reword |
||
May 8, 2017, 06:08 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 456
|
That sounds the most reasonable and logical and one that I will support 100%. If you consume alcohol you cant carry. On the other hand, if you dont consume alcohol you can carry. Just like driving, flying, etc. Simple logic.
|
May 9, 2017, 06:22 AM | #14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
Quote:
|
|
May 9, 2017, 07:38 AM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 975
|
I could be imagining things but don't some states allow you to drink while carrying but if you do anything stupid, then you're responsible.
|
May 9, 2017, 08:33 AM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,259
|
Quote:
|
|
May 9, 2017, 09:14 AM | #17 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 7,523
|
There is another TX statute prohibiting an LTC holder from carrying while intoxicated, which I discuss in this recent thread. Note that there is no cut-and-dried definition of "intoxicated" in the statute, nor do I know of one in case law.
Just to be clear, the TX statute prohibiting carry while intoxicated is separate and distinct from the one prohibiting carry into a 51% business. Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak |
||
May 9, 2017, 08:33 PM | #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2013
Location: Albany Park, Chicago
Posts: 776
|
Quote:
|
|
May 10, 2017, 01:35 AM | #19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 12, 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,048
|
Quote:
We can carry into actual bars 100% alcohol funded, no restrictions as long as the place isn't posted off limits (private property rights remain intact) |
|
May 10, 2017, 07:16 AM | #20 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
|
Carguychris signalled:
Quote:
__________________
Cave illos in guns et backhoes |
|
May 10, 2017, 07:47 AM | #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 975
|
Quote:
|
|
May 10, 2017, 07:49 AM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 25, 2006
Location: The Keystone State
Posts: 1,970
|
Carrying
I understand from this post that individual cities in Texas can mandate individual regulations as regards gun control.
I was under the impression the state sets all such rules and regs.
__________________
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson |
May 10, 2017, 07:55 AM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,259
|
Texas state law is controlling. I am not aware of local laws being applicable actually.
|
May 10, 2017, 09:02 AM | #24 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 7,523
|
Quote:
A municipality may regulate the discharge of firearms under certain conditions spelled out in § 229.002-229.004, but may not regulate transfer, sale, possession, or carry.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak |
|
May 10, 2017, 09:16 AM | #25 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,446
|
Quote:
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
|
|
|