.38spl Long Range Ballistic Stability

[B. Lahey]

A .38spl projectile was fired and struck a person 500 yards away. The bullet apparently entered the torso in a fully yawed state (completely sideways). Does the .38spl typically lose ballistic stability and yaw at long range on its own, or does a completely unstable projectile at that distance indicate that it must have first struck something at some point in its flight, causing it to become unstable?

The projectile appears to the naked eye to be completely undeformed, with deep rifling impressions.

This is not a hypothetical question.

[Sevens]

My first question would be... are we certain this was .38 Special? And the reason I ask is that because -MANY- (not all) but many .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads will run the same bullet and we'll need to keep in mind that a lighter .38 Special load and a full-bore .357 Magnum load are at far, far differing ends of the velocity spectrum.

Depending on bullet weight and the firearm it was launched from (or more to the point, the length of the barrel it was launched from...) we could see muzzle velocities ranging from 700 FPS to 1,600 FPS.

I'm no mathematician, ballisitician or forensic scientist, but I think it would matter a lot.

[Nick_C_S]

Given enough time, any and all bullets will eventually yaw. Although, most all the time, something stops their path before that happens (a target or the ground). Even fired in the vacuum of space, gyroscopic procession dictates that they will eventually go into a yaw orientation (and then back into a straight orientation, and so on. . . )

Back to reality: There a many bullet profiles for 38 Special / 357 Magnum. And some of those profiles - particularly those designed for close-range target shooting - lend themselves to yaw over a short range.

So yes, it is possible that after 500 yards, the "38 bullet" could indeed be in a completely sideways orientation on its own.

[Erno86]

I've had Seller & Bellot, 38 Special wadcutters, keyhole on my target paper at 25 & 50 yards --- while using my S&W M19 snubbie.

[B. Lahey]

My first question would be... are we certain this was .38 Special? And the reason I ask is that because -MANY- (not all) but many .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads will run the same bullet and we'll need to keep in mind that a lighter .38 Special load and a full-bore .357 Magnum load are at far, far differing ends of the velocity spectrum.

Depending on bullet weight and the firearm it was launched from (or more to the point, the length of the barrel it was launched from...) we could see muzzle velocities ranging from 700 FPS to 1,600 FPS.

I'm no mathematician, ballisitician or forensic scientist, but I think it would matter a lot.

It was a .38spl hollowpoint (.38spl marked casings) of unknown weight (but I would say in the 158gr neighborhood judging by the length of the projectile in the autopsy photo, which I can't share at this point, unfortunately) fired from a .357 revolver with a short barrel (can't say how long, haven't been able to inspect the gun yet).

Thanks for the assistance.

[SaxonPig]

A bullet...any bullet...should not "keyhole" like that regardless of range. Turning in flight means something didn't gel with the bullet/rifling. Could be a very wrong twist rate or a bullet that is way undersized.

And who the hell is shooting at people from 500 yards with a 38 Special? And hitting them, no less? I'm not sure I could see people at 500 yards let alone hit them with a 38.

Now tell me it was a 2" snubbie...

[skizzums]

I would assume this is an accidental shooting. Or somebody has some serious skills.

[B. Lahey]

Now tell me it was a 2" snubbie...

Yep, very short barrel, although I have not been able to measure it yet.

I would assume this is an accidental shooting.

That would be a reasonable assumption.

[SSA]

I would not expect yawing or tumbling.
But, if this was a nearly vertical shot, it might have been tumbling pretty much all the way down from the apex.

[g.willikers]

Wouldn't it be natural for any bullet to yaw when losing momentum as the velocity deteriorates, as it would at very long distances?
500 yards would seem to be definitely that for a .38.
And as SSA says, if it had run out of steam and was just falling and tumbling in the airstream.

[Jim Watson]

Depending on the ballistic coefficient - the bullet is not identified - a 158 gr .38 at mv 800 fps would be doing 400-580 fps at 500 yards.
I would have thought that enough to remain stable and point on, but it is said not not to have in this instance. That was one unlucky character to collect a pistol bullet under those conditions.

[Sevens]

I'm not sure I could see people at 500 yards

Reconsider what you just wrote... or try to see objects at 500 yards at your next opportunity.

Failing those, visit an ophthalmologist.

If I can hit an 8-inch round steel gong at 200 yards with an open sighted rimfire pistol, I should really hope that you can see an average size human person at 500 yards if you were trying... and they weren't attempting to hide from you.

[T. O'Heir]

Really not enough info given. Too many variables.
Very much doubt any .38 would get to 500 yards with enough energy to penetrate anything, never mind a human body. Energy of a 158 grain LWC(755 fps MV. 689 fps at 100) at 100 is only 167 ft-lbs. with a drop of 8.4".
Out of a .357 the same bullet has 361 ft-lbs at 100 staring at 1235 fps.
A jacketed bullet has a bit more but not much. A Hornady 158 xtp runs 198 ft-lbs at 100.
Handgun ballistics tables don't go to 500, but I suspect a 158 out of a .38 will hit the ground before it gets that far. Depending on the angle it was fired at of course.
"...projectile appears to the naked eye to be completely undeformed..." It would be if it did penetrate.

[W5TVW]

This is rather stretching the situation a bit, isn't it? Who would pop a 500 yard shot from a .38 Special revolver at a human size target? Rather a "longshot" try isn't it?

I can usually hit a gallon milk jug from 50-70 yards easily 4-5 times with a Colt model 1 "Detective's Special" with a 2" barrel with a two hand hold rested on a sandbag rest. This with 158 grain RN cast round nose bullets loaded with a moderate (not HOT) WW-231 powder load. Wish my 380 ACP Ruger LC380 was this good a shooter! (Too much slide/frame "windage slop" in the weapon!)

[Colt46]

Normal velocity loss would have a stable bullet traveling around 600fps. If it shows deep rifling grooves then the barrel isn't shot out.
I would say it encountered something close to terminal impact that caused the yaw. Once it starts to yaw it's velocity would shed very quickly.

My curiosity is piqued. Keep us updated with any further

[Gazpacho]

Assuming it wasn't an accidental discharge, it would probably taken a severe sociopath to shoot at a person at 500 yards. Now if that sociopath were shooting at a crowd of people at 500 yards, the odds of hitting someone go up dramatically.

You mentioned that the bullet showed little or no deformation. Yet, it was a hollow point. That would make some sense as the loss of velocity might be below the minimum needed to open up the hollow point.

You mentioned the bullet was yawed at impact. A defect in the rifling of the revolver, or a severe defect in the weight distribution in the bullet seem to me to be the most likely causes.

It would not take much penetration to cause a fatal wound. 4 or 5 inches might be enough to damage a major artery. Damage near the heart to the aorta, either of the brachial arteries, the ascending or descending arteries, could bleed out the victim very quickly. If it was a child that was struck, yeah I could see this happening.

From the wording and the timing of the OP, I would guess that this was a 4th of July shooting, and the victim was just watching the fireworks. I would put my money on a Detroit suburb.

[SSA]

Say you have a 158 gr bullet, BC .150, 750 fps MV.
Target is at 20 yards. Somebody overshoots the target by 3 feet and misses the backstop.
At 500 yards, the bullet is back down to the original elevation and going over 500 fps. That's not enough to make the bullet expand, but plenty for penetration. It carries about 100 ft-lb KE.
The only thing that's hard to explain in this scenario is the keyholing.

[g.willikers]

Who has a 500 yard place to shoot?
Sounds like it's time for a test.

[Jim243]

A .38spl projectile was fired and struck a person 500 yards away

If I understand you correctly, a 125 grain bullet fired with 5.6 grains of powder went the distance of 5 football fields end to end and landed sideways.

That must have been one hell of a holdover on that shot and your asking about ballistics and if this is normal?

No, it is not normal to try to shoot 500 yards with a 38 Spl. (for good reason)

Jim

Was this done with a PCC and if so how long was the barrel?

[SaxonPig]

"If I can hit an 8-inch round steel gong at 200 yards with an open sighted rimfire pistol..." Congratulations. This is has zero bearing on what I can or cannot do. At 500 yards we are talking well over a quarter of a mile. My 59 year old eyes cannot clearly distinguish a man sized target at that range. I can't see the black part of a pistol target at 50 yards. Just a fuzzy blob to me. Good for you if you have no idea what I'm talking about and can't imagine it. Consider yourself fortunate.

[fshfindr]

Are you sure it was a pistol? There are 38 cal rifles you know.

[James K]

I have fired a fair amount of .38 Special from a 3" Model 36 at 100 yards, and the holdover is great enough that I very much doubt that anyone could deliberately aim at a person at 500 yards with a handgun. The shooter would have to aim a lot (20 feet?) over the person's head.

I wonder is we are dealing with a very high angle shot, which could account for the bullet tumbling when it comes down.

Jim

[smee78]

It sounds like a "warning shot" that found a target. (no I dont believe in warning shots so dont even bother with the replies) It is quite a long shot for a pistol.

[tipoc]

Guy fires a gun into the air. The bullet comes down 500 yards away and hits someone. Not all that rare unfortunately.

On the yaw. There is actually no way to tell what caused it. You can guess but it's just that. It may not have yawed in flight till it struck. It may only have yawed the last 100 ft. and then not much. It may have begun to yaw 50 yards from the muzzle. Take your best guess and that's all you have to work with.

You don't know what angle the bullet was fired at or what angle it descended at. You don't know the charge. Did it pass through tree branches? Was it raining? Was it windy? Did it hit a bumble bee? ya don't know.

It also don't matter.

Ya got the gun, ya got the bullet and the case, so likely you have whoever fired the gun. That matters.

tipoc

[kraigwy]

A bullet...any bullet...should not "keyhole" like that regardless of range.

Bullets do in fact "key hole".

I have many (and have many) 168 SMKs key hole at 1000 yards. That being the same load that shoots quite well at 600.

I've had 535 Gr bullets out of a 45-70 Keyhole at 800, 900, & 1000 yards do to the bullet being cast too hard and too much velocity.

The same bullet using pure lead, kept to 1100-1200 FPS being quite accurate.

All bullets are different, and I can assure you it would not be unreasonable for a 38 to become unstable at 500 yards. I haven't shot 38s at that distance but I have seen some keyhole at 100 which other wise would be quite accurate at 50.

I've done some CSI work (still certified to teach it) and I can tell you I've seen some bullets do some weird, unexplainable things.

One thing you can take to the bank ref: Firearm Investigation, is no two bullets from the same gun fired into the same media will react the same way.

The same with the bullet in flight. Take the 168s mentioned above. I've shot several at 1000 yard matches from M14s. You can get some that shoots like you want and then you'll get keyholes, or flyers.

Out of a 22" barrel with a MV at 2550, its subsonic at 1000. On the 308 you need to remain super sonic at 1000 to have any success.

Then as to the 45-70 black powder load, if you use hard cast bullets and try to put them to 1500+ fps it will become unstable, where as using soft lead, limiting the velocity to less then 1200 fps, they can be quite accurate.

The whys and why fores are difficult to explain, and very.

To understand why some bullets do certain things study:

Understanding Firearm Ballistics by Robert A. Rinker

Gen J. Hatchers writings

and Bryan Litz of Berger Bullets has written several books on the subject.

Check out Litz's latest book "Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting"
He has a good section on How Stability affects bullet flight.

Just understand nothing about bullets and bullet flight is sure and certain.