.357 Rem Maximum vs .44 Mag for grizzly/polar bear defense?

[Carriertxv]

Like said above I can confirm. My wife and I were charged by a 400 or 500 lb male grizzly a few years ago. We were in Banff National park so no weapons other than bear spray. Whether the spray worked or it was a bluff charge we don’t know but I can tell you the only gun I believe that would have come close to working is a short shotgun. That bear came across 40 or so yards of ground across a creek and stopped 10 yards from us in seconds.
Maybe some of you who have served and have faced combat could stay calm and used a handgun to kill it but I have not and no way could have come close to hitting that bear with a handgun.
Now having a handgun for backup as well as a 12 gauge with slugs and buckshot I agree but only a handgun not so sure.

[rodfac]

Like said above I can confirm. My wife and I were charged by a 400 or 500 lb male grizzly a few years ago. We were in Banff National park so no weapons other than bear spray. Whether the spray worked or it was a bluff charge we don’t know but I can tell you the only gun I believe that would have come close to working is a short shotgun. That bear came across 40 or so yards of ground across a creek and stopped 10 yards from us in seconds.
Maybe some of you who have served and have faced combat could stay calm and used a handgun to kill it but I have not and no way could have come close to hitting that bear with a handgun.
Now having a handgun for backup as well as a 12 gauge with slugs and buckshot I agree but only a handgun not so sure.

Damned good food for thought...having fished in Alaska, I can also attest to the fact that if you are distracted (fishing, bird watching etc), you just won't hear them til they're close...it's very sobering to find them 50' away and wondering how they got there. Rod

[jmr40]

It doesn't matter much, but between the 2 I'd rather have 44 mag simply because it is easier to find good ammo for. Carry the one you will actually have on you instead of in camp.

Forget energy numbers, they are useless in determining performance. Penetration is all that matters and that is determined more by bullet choice than cartridge. A 147 gr hardcast from a 9mm at 1000 fps will penetrate 6' and shoot all the way though any of the big bears.

The most important thing is to have a gun and use it. Read up on some REAL facts instead of guesses and old wives tales.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/han...#axzz5yVe12kTf

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/alask...-a-9mm-pistol/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZBVnquaLXM

[Nanuk]

I seriously doubt any one can empty a revolver at a charging bear and all shots hit their mark...shooting more than 50 years and serving through several conflicts in my military career makes me sound full of myself, but that is just the way I see it.

This sounds an awful lot like " I can't do it, so nobody can". How many rounds have you fired thru you military career?

I have fired 10's of thousands of magnums, though I am no Jerry Miculek I can do pretty good.

[BillSussman]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

This sounds an awful lot like " I can't do it, so nobody can". How many rounds have you fired thru you military career?

I have fired 10's of thousands of magnums, though I am no Jerry Miculek I can do pretty good.

The best shooters I know are regular civilians that go to the range all the time. Most military/police can shoot their 9mm well enough to quality every year but that is about it. I'm in the military and don't know of any units that even use a 357 revolver let alone a 44 or 500.

[DWFan]

Given that only three revolvers, (the Ruger, the Dan Wesson and the Seville), were chambered in the Maximum and all three are long since discontinued with two falling into the collector category and the fact that ammo is virtually non-existent, the OP's question is rather pointless. No offense.
The .44 Magnum is the hands down winner. Everybody and their brother makes a .44 Magnum. Off-the-shelf mild .44 Magnum target ammo exists as "cowboy loads". At the other end of the spectrum, extreme power loads (like Buffalo Bore) are also readily obtainable. The .44 possibly has the widest variety of factory loaded ammo of any handgun caliber.

[ms6852]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

This sounds an awful lot like " I can't do it, so nobody can". How many rounds have you fired thru you military career?

I have fired 10's of thousands of magnums, though I am no Jerry Miculek I can do pretty good.

No it is not a question of if I can not do it therefore no one can. The point I am trying to make is that if you do not practice, practice practice with whatever gun you plan to use for bear protection, than you may develop a false sense of security in believing that you can be proficient with a firearm that has a lot of recoil due to caliber size.

By the way have you ever been so frightened that you can not think straight and your heart is racing so hard from fear? If not, than do me a favor, next time you go to the range empty your firearm at your target as fast as the range allows. Than do 50 jumping jacks and 20 pushups and shoot at your target as fast as it is allowed at the range. See how your accuracy is affected...even than it does not compare to being afraid for your life.

I'm trying to give good practical advice so I would appreciate it if you would not act like the CNN journalists and attack me without you having a clue of who I am and how many times I have shot in my military career.

Being ex-military in my case retired or being a law enforcement officer does not necessarily make anyone an expert in firearms or anything. The advice I give is not aimed at experience people that have been around firearms for a long time. Those that are experienced will either agree or disagree with what I have printed and than point out mistakes or reinforce points I may not have known or forgot.

My advice is meant for the novice person just buying his or her first firearm or are researching and don't even know what questions to ask. You being a veteran and a LEO should have a more positive attitude and with your many experiences you have encountered should extrapolate from those experiences and give more sage advice as you obviously have the wisdom from practical experiences, instead of acting like the journalists and their ilk.

[Nanuk]

The best shooters I know are regular civilians that go to the range all the time. Most military/police can shoot their 9mm well enough to quality every year but that is about it. I'm in the military and don't know of any units that even use a 357 revolver let alone a 44 or 500.

That is very close to what I have seen as well. The other parallel I have seen is that cops that are shooters are usually better shooters than the group you mentioned.

[Nanuk]

No it is not a question of if I can not do it therefore no one can. The point I am trying to make is that if you do not practice, practice practice with whatever gun you plan to use for bear protection, than you may develop a false sense of security in believing that you can be proficient with a firearm that has a lot of recoil due to caliber size.

That transcends into a lot of area's, it is called the Dunning-Kruger effect.

By the way have you ever been so frightened that you can not think straight and your heart is racing so hard from fear? If not, than do me a favor, next time you go to the range empty your firearm at your target as fast as the range allows. Than do 50 jumping jacks and 20 pushups and shoot at your target as fast as it is allowed at the range. See how your accuracy is affected...even than it does not compare to being afraid for your life.

Been there, done that. I attended a SWAT school in 1983, not long after getting out of the Army. We had to run 1/4 mile in gas masks right up the the firing line, peel the mask off and run the stress course. Huge eye opener.

I'm trying to give good practical advice so I would appreciate it if you would not act like the CNN journalists and attack me without you having a clue of who I am and how many times I have shot in my military career.

It was not intended as an attack, but an observation. I know for a fact that the US Military does not use magnum revolvers, the Navy Seals did for a while though. I have fired tens of thousands of rounds through various magnum revolvers and knew right away that your blanket statement was wrong. You only mentioned your military career as a qualifier, so the assumption is that you have not fired a magnum revolver enough to form an educated opinion. If I am wrong I apologize.

Being ex-military in my case retired or being a law enforcement officer does not necessarily make anyone an expert in firearms or anything.

Correct, there is a difference between 30 years of experience and 1 year of experience 30 times.

The advice I give is not aimed at experience people that have been around firearms for a long time. Those that are experienced will either agree or disagree with what I have printed and than point out mistakes or reinforce points I may not have known or forgot.

I did disagree, you apparently disliked the way I disagreed.

My advice is meant for the novice person just buying his or her first firearm or are researching and don't even know what questions to ask.

Perhaps you should have prefaced it in such a way. I see far too many people who fall into the category I mentioned.

You being a veteran and a LEO should have a more positive attitude and with your many experiences you have encountered should extrapolate from those experiences and give more sage advice as you obviously have the wisdom from practical experiences, instead of acting like the journalists and their ilk.

I do have a positive attitude, but I call BS when I see it. Did I lie? Is that what you are accusing me of? Prove me wrong, how long have you carried a magnum revolver, what training have you had with one, how many competitive events have you participated in shooting one?

I personally carried a 357 magnum for about 20 years on and off duty and a 44 Magnum for about 15 years off duty. Though lately I am more likely to just carry my Glock for most duties.

[ms6852]

"I do have a positive attitude, but I call BS when I see it. Did I lie? Is that what you are accusing me of? Prove me wrong, how long have you carried a magnum revolver, what training have you had with one, how many competitive events have you participated in shooting one?"

No you have not lied but neither have I given any BS in my statements. Simply stated if one has not practiced with a magnum that they are in for a surprise when shooting one. I practice twice a week about 200 rounds each time just shy of max on my reloads. I've had my revolver several months so I have shot several thousand rounds. I do my practice double action only 99% of the time and I shoot several hundred rounds of 22lr off my 617 revolver to maintain proficiency in double action also. Based on my personal experience I stated that if I had trouble maintaining a good shot group that it would be difficult to hit your mark in a more stressful scenario like a bear charging especially in shooting double action, and if this is going to be a recent firearm purchase and one has no experience with the firearm that you are merely not going to be as proficient as you would be with whatever firearms one carries and practices with. I do believe that the OP mentioned that he does not plan to be in that scenario frequently. The fact that I only have a .357 magnum I know that the 44 magnum will be harder to shoot accurately due to the recoil and if you are being charged by an angry bear I doubt you will be shooting single action only.

[agtman]

A 10mm pistol, loaded with hot-n-heavy 200gn or 220gn hard cast slugs, is still the correct answer.

It's not too late, if you think it through.

[Nanuk]

People get a false sense of security by carrying a larger caliber firearm, but sadly they trust their life on a .357, or 44 magnum, or a 454 casull or a 500 magnum as bear protection when in reality they never practice enough to become proficient because the recoil is unmanageable or practicing is plain expensive so I seriously doubt any one can empty a revolver at a charging bear and all shots hit their mark.

That is the statement you made that I take issue with. You are projecting, you do not believe you could do it, so nobody can. The rest is smoke and mirrors.

As agtman said, get a good 10mm and rock on. Has the power and penetration and is easier to shoot than a magnum revolver. Personally I will stick with the 44 magnum, I have 4 of them.

[ms6852]

@ Nanuk, please have a good , no great life and thank you very very much for your service to our country as a soldier and thank you even more for your service as a LEO .

It is obvious that we both agree to disagree and my statements were made for the novice shooter not for the expert like yourself. Regardless, thank you for your response and I acknowledge where you come from.

[agtman]

Super interesting thread (now on its 8th page) on an Alaskan shooting forum filled with posts mostly by the folks who have to deal with AK bear encounters on a daily basis ...

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...t-10MM-Handgun

[Auto5]

Either one would piss off a big bear equally. :-)

[Jack O'Conner]

There are powerful pepper sprays on the market that are better choices than a revolver.

Jack

[briandg]

I've done a lot of thinking about this. are you referring to most factory loads in the .44 with the .240gran at 1,200 or the hot factory loads with that bullet at about 1,500? or are you talking about the super monster rounds?

The most appropriate round for bear that the maximum has is a 210 grain bullet at about 1,600. the sd of the maximum is .223 vs .185 adding to penetration potential. This thing is going to penetrate far deeper than the .44. There isn't any question about that, with proper bullets that limit expansion, it has a better penetration potential by a long margin. This is approaching the velocity range and bullet profile of the .35 remington, a very good round from a rifle. It ought to increase overall penetration and damage by maybe half again over the .240 grain magnum. I don't believe that a diameter increase of only .07 is going to be a deciding factor. in any way.

If you compare the maximum to the 270 grain and larger high powered rounds, it gets fuzzy and power alone won't answer that question, imo. At some point the .44 magnum will have both weight and velocity levels that can drive it deeper and inflict a greater wound than the maximum will. Neither of the rounds are going to have a great advantage beyond what the weight is, the velocity is, and the sectional density or penetration capability. It seems quite obvious to me that a 300 grain .44 round at full capacity will be more deadly on big and heavy critters like a grizzly.

[GeauxTide]

Correctamundo, Mr. O'Heir. Have never liked these threads. Research I've done with the available Alaska Guides point the use of large caliber rifles. If you look at https://alaskafairchaseguiding.com/brown-bear , you'll notice the size of those beasts. My minimum would be a 45-70, 405gr bullet that will blow through it at any angle at 2000fps.

[ms6852]

@briandg, Just my 2¢ without any scientific knowledge or and practical experience with either caliber, I would think that the 44 magnum with the 240 grain bulllet at 1200 fps would be a better choice than the 210 grain bullet at 1600 fps from the maximum.

The reason I think this is that the maximum would dump all its energy upon impact at 1600 fps causing the bullet to expand faster thus not penetrating as deep as the slower heavier bullet moving at 1200 fps still retaining some of its shape with minimal expansion.

But as I stated I have no experience with either caliber but I do have experience with hard cast bullets for my .357 and 45/70 sharps rifle.

[Hal]

The reason I think this is that the maximum would dump all its energy upon impact at 1600 fps causing the bullet to expand faster thus not penetrating as deep as the slower heavier bullet moving at 1200 fps still retaining some of its shape with minimal expansion.

Expanding ammunition is seldom used on dangerous game animals. If/when it is used, it's usually - not by choice - and/or a soft point of some sort.

[stinkeypete]

.375 H&H magnum if you are really serious. 7mm mag or 30-06 if you are sort of serious.

.357 Max is interesting in that .357 magnum is already at the point where carbine length barrels have good benefit. Then make a cartridge that is more so. As much as I tried to love it, I could not. I learned a lot, though. I learned that for handguns, you just can’t beat a big hole.

If you want to shoot past 50 yards, get funny fancy calibers.if you NEED to shoot past 50 yards, get a rifle.

If your plan is to shoot.38 special out of your .357 Max, get a .38. Little handgun bullets going fast just isn’t as effective on game animals as a big lead golf ball like .44 or .45 or .50

If you can’t reload a cowboy load .44, time to buy some dies, a scale, and start! But not for polar bears.

[Ruger45LC]

Handgun wise, 44 Magnum as a minimum, no question about it. Bigger and heavier bullets are going to work better. I was shooting my swinging steel plate, for reference a .22 LR will barely move it, but I hit it with 230gr ball .45 ACP and a 125gr 357 Magnum, and the 230gr .45 moved it much better than the 357 did. Does that prove anything? Maybe not, but bigger and heavier bullets certainly have an advantage.

[Nanuk]

Does that prove anything?

It proved that the .45 won on the scale of momentum.

[shafter]

I would pick the gun I had the most range time with even if it seemed inferior on paper. Far too often people go out and buy a hand cannon when the 357 magnum they've been shooting their whole life would be the much better choice when loaded with good ammo. That bear is going to be moving fast, and so will the adrenaline through your body.

If I was worried about polar bears I'd want a long gun I could shoot with gloves on.

[44 AMP]

The most appropriate round for bear that the maximum has is a 210 grain bullet at about 1,600.

Ok, fine. Where do you get that, and what do you shoot it out of??

No body has made any repeating handguns in .357 Max for quite a few years now. And I the data I have shows only a couple loads cracking 1600fps with a 200gr bullet, from a 10" barrel Contender, and NONE from a repeater. So, I'll take leave to doubt that you can get a 200gr .357 bullet to 1600fps from the barrel of any repeating pistol that might be practical to carry for bear befense.

This is approaching the velocity range and bullet profile of the .35 remington, a very good round from a rifle.

Not sure what you mean by "approaching", though I suppose if you're ten miles away, you're "approaching" my house...

The .35 Remington will throw that 200gr bullet over 400fps faster than the .357 Max, again, out of a long Contender barrel (not going to find any .35 Rem revolvers...) and while I would allow 100fps difference as "approaching" 400fps is just too far away to be considered such, in my opinion.

The .357Maximum was created to obtain an advantage in a particular shooting game. Only a very few guns were ever chambered for it, and it got a reputation for eating forcing cones pretty quick. When the rules of the game were changed to allow single shot pistols (and in calibers with more power than the .357Max) interest in the .357 Max essentially evaporated.

It's still an impressive round on paper, but bears don't read ballistic tables.