Ring Around The Collar, Diagnosis Please

[Brian Pfleuger]

These are twice fired (one factory, one fairly light load) Hornady 204 cases.
See the ring almost dead-center case body.

Note: It's not the gun, many cases from this same vintage don't exhibit this ring, and none of my Norma cases have shown it. Is this a case failure indication? It looks *sort of* similar to pictures I've seen that are labeled "incipient case head seperation", but the ring in those pictures is always very low on the case (near the head! ):

[RWJOHN]

Hi Pete. What tool are you using to chamfer and debur? My Lee tool puts that same mark on my 7MM rem mag brass. In fact, I recently disposed of and older piece of brass that had me worried about the same issue. Duh!
Boy did I feel stupid after discovering the culprit. I'm either going to get a different tool or try and take that sharp edge off the Lee. I'll probably get a new tool.

Peace

RJ

[Brian Pfleuger]

I use the Lee hand tool.... nothing touches that part of the case in my entire process, except the Redding body die, which these have never been through.

[azredhawk44]

If you stick a paperclip inside the case and scratch against the inner wall, do you feel the same line in the same place?

If so, that is the point where the case is stretching and it could be case head separation.

If not... it's a tool mark from somewhere in your reloading process. Perhaps cartridge storage? The plastic cartridge carriers rubbing the brass?

[Brian Pfleuger]

A few more details...

The mark does not seem to be present inside the case... can be felt with a fingernail so is not "surface level" scratching... does not line up with any obvious cause in the ammo box.... is not on any of the Norma cases that have been in the same box, and loaded with the same equipment.... and most importantly I suppose, is almost 100% related to the actual firing event. No mark on chambering, mark on extraction... it's not in the chamber, the Norma cases are unaffected at MUCH higher load levels with the same bullet, primers and powder.

[RWJOHN]

Does the Lee hand tool line up with the mark? If so, maybe the slight marking(scratch) is more visible after firing when the case has stretched.

Peace

RJ

[zippy13]

The lines are too uniform to be stress related. I agree with the others, it has to be some sort of mechanical marking. Perhaps a call to Hornady might shed some light on the subject.

[Brian Pfleuger]

It is very uniform, though it does not always go all the way around the case.

I don't believe that it could be from the Lee tool:





Plus, like I said, it's not on ANY of my more 40 Norma cases which are all prepped with the same tools and methods, I did not see it on ANY case before the second firing and it appears on about 30% of the Hornady cases post-firing.

Some of the Norma cases have now been fired 3 times with what are essentially max loads and they have no marks at all.

[mehavey]

Observation: The mark is not there before firing; it is there immediately upon firing/extraction. Conclusion: It's a firing conditions issue, not a case pre/tools issue. (Maybe. See [B] below.)

Two questions:

A. You've run a paperclip inside the case and felt no discontinuity at the mark. Have you run that same paperclip inside the chamber ?

B. You've said that the mark appears on these cases having fired fairly mild loads -- and other-brand cases show no mark even after hot loads. Do you have some once-fired/unmarked prior full-load Hornady cases that you can neck size only (therefore preserving fully expanded chamber dimensionality), then fire at the mild/mid-load levels to see if marks still appear?

If the marks don't appear after [B] above, I suspect the case is being over-resized at the base relative to chamber dimensions, and the case is only expanding the thinner/annealed forward walls back to the mark point.

[Brian Pfleuger]

All cases of both brands have been sized using only a Lee Collet neck die. All cases of both brands have been fired only in this gun.

One difference is that the Hornady cases were originally fired using (obviously) full factory loads. The Norma cases were all fireformed to the gun using very light loads of either Unique or TrailBoss before they were fired using full loads of Benchmark.

[mehavey]

A. (again) Any discontinuity in the chamber via paperclip analysis?
.
.
.
C. Have the Hornaday cases fired full loads yet, and if so... does the mark still appear at those high loadings (on a previously unmarked case)?

D. In running your fingernail over the outside of the case/mark, does the discontinuity just at the mark indicate the lower (base) section of the case to be larger, or the forward section to be larger ?

[RWJOHN]

I'm going to be hard-headed on this one. If it turns out to be something other than the Lee tool, I'll send you mine as a back up. I'm going to get a RCBS and avoid this issue. I'm not knocking Lee. I have several of their products and one of them scratches my cases when I debur.

Just a thought. Run your fingernail over some others and see if you feel the scratch.

Peace and good luck

RJ

[Brian Pfleuger]

I have several of their products and one of them scratches my cases when I debur.

Hm. Ok....

I tried it, and I can make a ring around the case with the Lee tool, exactly where the rings in the picture appear.

It is strange that I never noticed the ring on any case before I fired them, and I have since carefully inspected the Norma cases and find the marks on NONE of them.

Regardless, it does seem that you are correct. I shall have to sand and polish the inner edge of the tool to prevent this happening in the future.

Good to know that it's not pressure related and I can go ahead and load these up.

Thanks guys.

[zippy13]

Killa,
Please, give us a heads-up after you ease and polish the edge of the LEE tool.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Now that we have that answer I have a question for you....What kind of pizza is that in the background?

[zippy13]

Gotta be a "killa" pizza.

[Brian Pfleuger]

It was a 16" round with pepperoni, olives and 1/4 onion.

[RWJOHN]

Sounds delicious. What is your delivery radius? I guestimate I'm about 750-800 miles from you.

Sorry if I sounded stubborn. I'm still kicking myself for smashing my piece of brass with some Vice-Grips. It was one I had deburred years ago and it really fooled me. Even looking inside with my bore light I thought I saw a line approximately where the ring was. Probably a burned powder mark. I tried the paper clip method and convinced myself I felt an abnormality. Only after smashing did I discover the same mark on some other rounds. A google search revealed that several others have experienced this with the Lee tool.
I buffed the area and sprayed some Hornady One Shot inside and this helped but it still would leave a mark if I wasn't perfect. The 7MM brass doesn't leave much wiggle room. I'll still send you mine when I get a replacement.

Peace

RJ

[Brian Pfleuger]

Sounds delicious. What is your delivery radius? I guestimate I'm about 750-800 miles from you.

About 30 feet, but pizza is on the house for fellow TFLers... so far only one of you has taken me up on the offer.

Thanks for the help... I was so convinced that it was a pressure problem that I would have never considered the Lee tool. I knew it wasn't any of the other tools as I had checked all those sources.

You guys rock!

[wncchester]

Suspect you are going to find the cause of those rings is there was a knick in the reamer that left a matching ring in the chamber. You aren't getting it in hard cases but it does show in softer cases. No big deal, it's harmless stuff, ignore it.

[SL1]

Whenever it seems like I feel a ring inside one of my cases when I do that paperclip test, I DO scrap the case. BUT, I don't just crush it and throw it away. Instead, I cut a section out of the side of the case so that I can SEE the place where the ring seems to be. When I first started doing this, sometimes I found NO ring, and sometimes I found a very SHALLOW ring that was NOT going to fail on the next firing. It took a while, but I eventually learned what a REAL incipient head failure feels like when I use a paperclip feeler.

Frankly, I rarely get this EXCEPT in my .30 Herrett cases, which I wasn't shooting when I learned my lesson. I actually had to intentionally slightly oversize a few (of my worst) cases for my .270 Winchester before I got them to show a serious ring. Once I knew what they really felt like, I found that I was no longer cutting up cases that turned-out to not have a real ring inside.

But, I still cut open EVERY case that I think has a ring, so it is a continuing education process.

SL1

[Mal H]

Hold the phone, guys!

Are you (RWJOHN and peetza) saying that the tool pictured in post #8 can cause a ring around a case as far down as it is pictured in post #1?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Mal H

Hold the phone, guys!

Are you (RWJOHN and peetza) saying that the tool pictured in post #8 can cause a ring around a case as far down as it is pictured in post #1?

Yep, hold on.... I'll get a picture...

[Brian Pfleuger]

Pics added

[Sevens]

About 30 feet, but pizza is on the house for fellow TFLers... so far only one of you has taken me up on the offer.

Bro, I'd be all over that (and an old empty can of Unique!) if you lived in a state that welcomed me as I come. But NY doesn't. I feel like a foreigner there.

I thought it was hilarious when I saw the pizza box in the photo and wondered if anyone else would pick it out!