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Old August 10, 2008, 10:57 AM   #76
jjyergler
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In home, birdshot is best.

Reason #1 Less chance of overpenetration, the importance of which we all
understand.
Reason #2 In short range situations, the pattern expands more quickly
Practically at less than 20 feet, pattern expansion is limited, but
birdshot will do a bit better.
Reason #3 In short range situations, birdshot is a more powerful load. At
short range, the effect of birdshot is similar to a giant Glaser
safety slug. Birdshot has more lead going downrange
than buckshot, as it is more densely loaded.
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Old August 10, 2008, 11:13 AM   #77
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Quote:
In home, bird shot is best.
By far the worst advice when it comes to a defensive load for a shotgun.
Bird shot is for birds, not social use.
Any buckshot from No4 on up is what you want to use when your life is on the line unless its all you have at the time leave the bird shot for the birds.
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Old August 10, 2008, 11:19 AM   #78
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jjyergler:

My mistake. I have been listening to experts for years, when I should have just contacted you.
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Old August 10, 2008, 12:55 PM   #79
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No one in his right mind would ever suggest that birdshot is acceptable to stop a black bear. Yet some people have the mistaken idea that it is acceptable for humans. In reality bears and humans are about the same size, with most weighing between 150-250 lbs. Sure there are bigger bears but you are much more likely to be attacked by a 350 lb man than a 350 lb bear.

Bears are not any tougher or harder to kill tham a typical man. The only advantage they have is a thicker hide. Put a man in even a light jacket and birdshot will be slowed to the point that penetration is severely limited. Put a heavy coat on a man and birdshot may serve to just make him mad. Even buckshot has penetration problems under these conditions.

Unless you know your attackers are going to be 120 lb naked men and you are going to wait until they are at near contact distance to pull the trigger please use buckshot.
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Old August 10, 2008, 01:09 PM   #80
Bill DeShivs
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Cops use buckshot because they may be in encounters at DISTANCE.
I will say (for the hundredth time) that buckshot is not necessary at home defense ranges.
I know it's hard for city folks to go out somewhere they can experiment with different shotgun loads, but you really should try it.
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Old August 10, 2008, 02:08 PM   #81
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What kind of distance are you referring to? Buckshot is highly over rated because of movies and TV. Even buckshot is pretty useless beyond 20-25 yards, and is not legal to hunt with in many places because it is not a reliable and humane way to take even 100 lb deer.

I have hunted nearly 40 years now and have seen first hand what birdshot will do when it hits people and animals. I've known a couple hunters who were hit with birdshot at surprisingly close range that had nasty looking wounds that only penetrated below the skin and never got through muscle. In fact the canvas jackets they wore stopped most of the pellets.
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Old August 10, 2008, 02:58 PM   #82
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Why must every thread include a post from the ignorant telling another ignorant newbie to use snakeshot/birdshot?

It is a predictable as the sunrise.
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Old August 10, 2008, 03:07 PM   #83
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Addressing the OP

I have the Remington 870 "Home Defender" and I think it fits all of your needs. I paid under $400 for it. I think it was $379 or $389 dollars out the door brand new.

It has the double pistol grips which I find make a pistol grip shotgun much easier to control.

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Old August 10, 2008, 03:29 PM   #84
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Where is Dave McC when we need him? LOL
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Old August 11, 2008, 10:53 AM   #85
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The longest possible shot inside my home is about 30 feet. At that distance, birdshot, especially the larger sizes, is devastating. Next range trip, shoot something with birdshot at that range.

Jeff F and jmr 40. Why am I wrong? I gave three specific reasons. If I'm wrong, tell us why. I may be wrong, but challenge my reasoning, don't just throw out an ad homenum attack.

OK, I am somewhat incorrect, Buck and Bird are close to equal in power, but Buckshot, at least in these loads, has an edge. These are just random loads I pulled off Federal's website. All are 12ga 2 3/4 in loads.
Federal Shotshell load #H121 437.5gr @ 1290 fps
Federal Buckshot load #F127 484.2gr @ 1325 fps

Federal Shotshell load #H126 546.9gr @ 1330 fps
Federal Buckshot load #F130 645.6gr @ 1290 fps

As for you nemoaz, being called ignorant by you makes me laugh. To what credentials do you point? As I said above, why is my reasoning wrong? If you can argue the point, I will admit my error. If you can't, I'll write you off as just another internet nitwit who uses the anonimity provided by your screen name to write things to which he is afraid to ascribe to his real name.
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Old August 11, 2008, 11:19 AM   #86
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I'm guilty of a serious mistake. I chimed in without giving a complete explanation. Many of these discussions are theoretical without reality. A theoretical "ideal" defence load does not exist. A choice of weapon should be based on your situation. This is how you should do it.

Your choice should be based on a tactical evaluation of your home. My house is 1330 sq ft. It is a split ranch, single story. My bedroom is centrally located in the home, with most other rooms connecting to a short hallway (3') where the bedroom is located.

Most of the shots in my house are short range. From my bedroom door to the front door, for example is about 10 feet. From my bedroom door to the back door is about 25 feet. From my bedroom door to the living room window is about 15 feet. From my bedroom door to the kitchen window is about 15 feet. The other two rooms in my home open into the living room, and the doorways to those rooms is about 15 feet from the master bedroom. The entrance to those rooms is around a corner from the rooms, so that 15 feet is the line of sight.

My home is alarmed, and there is a fenced in back yard with two large dogs (100 and 45 lbs, the usually sleep by the back door) The only points of access not fenced in are the front door and living room and kitchen windows. So, in my home, likely ranges for a defensive shooting are 10-15 feet with an extreme range of 25 feet or so. In south Florida, heavily clothed perps are unlikely.

There is one house with children about 20 feet from the outside wall in the kitchen. The back door is in a Florida room with 6' windows surrounding the room. Behind and below my backyard is another home, about 75 feet away.

For these conditions, overpenetration is a concern, especially to the west. The longest likely shot is 15 feet, the longest possible shot is 25 feet. I'll take my chances, and challenge anyone to show me that birdshot is inadequate for that distance.
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Old August 11, 2008, 11:28 AM   #87
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Quote:
Bears are not any tougher or harder to kill tham a typical man.


Even in Arkansas, our little bears are tougher than people, a 200 lb bear or boar is a much more compact and heavily built animal than a man. While I am confident in my ability to stop a human with a 9mm, I wouldn't even try against a bear unless in extremis.
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Old August 11, 2008, 11:43 AM   #88
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He he he he....nothing stirs the pot more than the old birdshot and buckshot subject.
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Old August 11, 2008, 12:03 PM   #89
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In a revised tactical evaluation of my home, I noticed my aquarium is only a few feet away from the living room window. I wouldn't want to hurt my fish, so from now on, if I need to defend myself, I'll use my Sig.
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Old August 11, 2008, 07:57 PM   #90
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jjyergler,

The problem with birdshot is lack of penetration. Your anology to the glaser slug is flawed because the glaser slugs are enclosed in a plastic sleeve and do not expand until after they have started to penetrate. At as little as 10 yards a shotgun pattern has several inches of spread. Even more when fired through open bored shotguns normally used for self defense.

While the velocity of the birdshot and buckshot may start out basically the same the birdshot will slow down much quicker, especially after contacting something. While the total weight of the shot in each shell is similar after firing each pellet is own its own. The weight of each buckshot pellet has much more momentum to keep it moving after it hits something.

I have no idea how many animals I've killed in my lifetime, but I have never cleaned a squirrel killed with birdshot that did not have pellets still inside the body. Most were taken between 15 to 20 yards. Do you really want to trust your life to a load that will not give complete penetration through a 1/2 lb squirrel. What if the person you have to shoot is wearing heavy clothes?

I understand your concern for not wanting to endanger others. But, that is really what buckshot is meant for. Police depts use buckshot because it will not travel as far after hitting walls or people. If they need to shoot at any distance over 25 yards they use slugs or rifles. Even with a complete miss the very un-aerodynamic pellets loose velocity much faster and travel less distance than rifle or pistol rounds. If you are uncomfortable with 00 buck then use #4 buck. It is smaller and may be a good compromise for you.
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Old August 11, 2008, 10:30 PM   #91
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Mossberg has an article in their 2008 Annual that basically says birdshot is absolutely not adequate for home defense, with 7 1/2 shot failing to fully penetrate 2" of mixed meat and bone from a distance of 5 feet! i.e., "Upon closer inspection I discovered that the meat had completely absorbed the majority of the shot. A few tiny pellets had punched through the cardboard around the meat but none passed through. 2" of meat/bone from 5 feet! Pitiful performance. Now even if it was a typo and was meant to be 15', or even 25'. that just isn't good enough.
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Old August 12, 2008, 12:37 AM   #92
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jmr,

Your point on #4 is a good one, when I was in the service (Desert Storm) that was the load we trained with when we used shotguns, which was not that often.

I'll try a few shots in a representative sample (beef brisket from Wal Mart) and let you know how it works.

When I have used birdshot on close range targets, it has seemed to function as one single projectile, which was what I was looking for. The squirrel analogy is completely apples and oranges, because you are using a 15-20 yard shot as an example. That is at least twice the greatest possible distance I would be shooting. I too have shot small game at that distance, and have seen the same results.

At five yards, I penetrated a lawnmower hood (sheet metal) and blew up a gallon of water behind it with #1 shot. I also used #1 at about that distance and shredded a 2x4. (I really miss living on the farm in Arkansas. )Come to think of it, that may be part of the problem, as I have my 870 loaded with #2, and some when they hear birdshot might be thinking #8 or 9.

I'll let you know about the beef brisket. Now, to see if I can borrow my buddy's lawn mower.
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